* This transcript was created by voice-to-text technology. The transcript has not been edited for errors or omissions, it is for reference only and is not the official minutes of the meeting. YEAH. SIX [00:00:01] O'CLOCK. ALL RIGHT, SIX [1. CALL SESSION TO ORDER] EVELYN. CALL THE WORK SESSION FOR THURSDAY, JUNE 6TH, 2024 TO ORDER. WE'LL START. ROLL CALL. COUNCILOR THOMPSON. COUNCILOR THORNTON. HERE. COUNCILOR CLARK. COUNCILOR LAR. HERE. COUNCILOR PORTERFIELD. MAYOR PROAM GORDON. HERE, MAYOR HERE. WE [3.1. Discussion of Hutto's Unified Development Code and possible revisions including but not limited to the following topics - xeriscaping, landscaping, monument signage, and other types of signage] GOT ITEM THREE, ONE DISCUSSION OF HOWTOS UNIFIED DEVELOPMENT CODE AND POSSIBLE REVISIONS INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO THE FOLLOWING TOPICS, ZERO ESCAPING LANDSCAPING, MONUMENT SIGNAGE AND OTHER TYPES OF SIGNAGE. CORRECT. SO, UM, FOR THE RECORD, ASHLEY BAILEY, DEVELOPMENT SERVICES DIRECTOR AND JUST LOOKING FOR FEEDBACK, THAT WAS THE ITEM ON FOR TONIGHT. IT'S JUST RECEIVING FEEDBACK ON THOSE ITEMS IN ADDITION TO WHAT WAS DONE AT THE JOINT SESSION BETWEEN COUNCIL AND PNZ. SO IF YOU HAVE ANY THOUGHTS, I DO HAVE THE CODE. IF WE WANTED TO GO THROUGH THE EXISTING CODE RIGHT NOW, I CAN TELL YOU ON THERE SCAPE IT'S ALLOWED, BUT IT'S NOT A MANDATE. AND THIS IS MORE FROM OUR CONVERSATION, I THINK. RIGHT. SO I, BECAUSE I THINK WHAT BROUGHT THIS UP WAS I WAS ASKED ABOUT X ESCAPING AND THEN THE CONVERSATION I THINK WAS, WELL IT'S, WE'RE GOING THROUGH UDC REWRITE SO WE CAN INCLUDE IT IF YOU WANT. AND MY RESPONSE WAS SOMETHING TO THE EFFECT OF I DON'T WANNA MAKE THE CHANGE BECAUSE I'M ASKING FOR IT. I THINK SOME OF THESE THINGS WE AS A COUNCIL SHOULD DISCUSS AND WE WANNA MAKE CHANGES THEN WE CAN DIRECT STAFF OR THE PEOPLE TO THEN MAKE SOME CHANGES. OTHERWISE, I FEEL LIKE IF WE DON'T GIVE SOME SORT OF DIRECTION, THEN THE UDC REWRITE COMES TO US. WE REALLY HAVEN'T HAD MUCH INPUT IN IT. AND SO NO OF OFFENSE TO CONSULTANTS, BUT IT'S THEIR UDC, IT'S NOT OUR UDC AND THEN WE SPEND ALL THE TIME AT THE END PICKING APART TALKING ABOUT WHAT WE LIKE OR DON'T LIKE. SO I THOUGHT IT'D BE GOOD ON SOME ISSUES THAT WE COULD BRING UP AND MAYBE GIVE DIRECTION AND HEY, WE DO WANT LIKE A MORE ROBUST ZERO ESCAPING PLAN OR SCRATCH THAT WE WANT, YOU KNOW, TURF LAWNS AND ALL THESE THINGS. SO I WILL TELL YOU RIGHT NOW WITH WHERE THE UDC IS, WE HAVE REQUIRED ZERO ESCAPING AND WE'VE PUT IN OUR ACTUAL CLIMATE, WHICH IS MORE ARID. AND SO WE REALLY SHOULDN'T HAVE A LOT OF TURF LAWNS EVERYWHERE. AND WE'VE ALSO TAKEN OUT A LOT OF THE HIGH WATER TURF GRASSES FROM THE CODE. UM, I THINK IT'S JUST GONNA WORK BETTER WITH WHERE WE ARE IN WATER. WE'RE ALSO LOOKING AT POTENTIALLY LOW IMPACT DEVELOPMENT ALONG SOME OF THE STREET WAVES, UH, STORM WATER WITH LANDSCAPING SO THAT SITES ARE NOT JUST HAVING TO DETAIN ON SITE, THEY'RE ACTUALLY USING IT TO IRRIGATE IT ON LANDSCAPING. SO TRYING TO BE VERY COGNIZANT. UH, AND THAT'S SOMETHING THAT IS BEING DISCUSSED BECAUSE THE UDC, WE'RE NOT JUST DOING IT AT STAFF LEVEL. WE ARE BRINGING IN, UH, P AND Z AND SENDING THEM ALL OF THE CHANGES THAT HAVE GONE THROUGH AND WE GET THE COMMENTS AND WE'RE, UM, WE'RE GOING BACK, BACK AROUND AND DISCUSSING IT, MAKING SURE EVERYTHING MATCHES UP. SO, BUT RIGHT NOW WE DO HAVE IT THAT ZERO ESCAPING IS GONNA BE REQUIRED BECAUSE OF WHERE WE ARE. ARE FOR WATER JUST IN THE REGION? REQUIRED, REQUIRED FOR, YEAH, ANY ESCAPING IS GONNA BE ZERO SCAP. SO RESIDENTIAL, COMMERCIAL NEED, LIKE WHAT'S THAT? YEAH. WHAT, WHEN I THINK OF ZERO ESCAPING, I'VE TALKED TO CITIES ABOUT ESCAPING LIKE, OH YEAH, WE LOVE IT. AND THEY'RE LIKE, BUT YOU NEED GRASS HERE. YOU NEED TREES HERE, YOU NEED BUSHES HERE. AND I'M LIKE, NO, I'M TALKING LIKE PHOENIX, ARIZONA ESCAPING THAT HAS SOME BUSHES AND TREES AND THAT'S, THEY ESCAPING. AND SO WHAT, YOU KNOW, IT'S SUCH AN OPEN-ENDED TURN. SO FOR WE WILL NOT BE LOOKING LIKE PHOENIX, IT'S GOING TO BE REASONABLE. UM, SO ZEROSCAPING DOESN'T HAVE TO JUST BE ROCKS AND IT'S NOT THE, IT'S ON THE DESERT. UM, THERE WILL BE THE ADAPTIVE LIST OF THE TREES THAT WE HAVE. YOU WOULD STILL BE ABLE TO HAVE SOME TURF. WE CAN ALWAYS LOOK AT ADDING SOME BACK IN THE RESIDENTIAL APPLICATIONS. UH, A LOT OF IT IS REALLY JUST USING THOSE NATIVE PLANTS AND IT'S GOING TO BE ABOUT THE WATERING MORE THAN ANYTHING. SO IT'LL BE THAT YOU HAVE THE BUBBLERS THAT ARE NOT JUST SPRAY WATERING AND THAT ONCE THEY'RE ESTABLISHED THEY REALLY DON'T NEED MUCH WATER OTHER THAN WHAT NATURALLY OCCURS. WHAT'S THE FRONT YARD OF A TYPICAL HOUSE TWO YEARS FROM NOW? WHAT WOULD THAT LOOK LIKE? UM, THEY HAVE A LOT OF OPTIONS. UM, THEY COULD HAVE TURF, THEY COULD HAVE THEIR LARGE TREES, THEY CAN HAVE SHRUBS. UH, THEY HAVE A LOT OF OPTIONS. THEY COULD ALSO NOT HAVE TURF AND THEY CAN JUST DO GROUND COVER IF THEY WANTED TO. SO IT'S STILL VERY GREEN. IT'S JUST NOT SAND ON A STAIN OR BERNITA. WHAT ABOUT NATIVE WILDFLOWERS? ABSOLUTELY. SO WE'RE, SO WE'LL HAVE TO BE OKAY WITH CODE NOT ENFORCING ON PEOPLE HAVING NATIVE WILDFLOWERS THAT HAVE GROWN BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, JUST LOOK AT THE SIDE OF THE ROAD, THEY'RE GONNA GROW TO TWO FEET TALL. YES, I'M IGNORANT NATIVE WILD FLOWERS AND WHAT SOME OF US CALLED WEEDS, UM, THEY GROW TOGETHER. [00:05:01] WEEDS GROW WITH WILDFLOWERS. MEAN SOMETIMES THEY CAN, THEY CHOKE THEM OUT. THEY AT LEAST CHOKE OUT THE WEEDS A LITTLE BIT. UM, I THINK WHAT YOU'LL SEE IS A LOT MORE THAN NATURAL LANDSCAPE, UH, WHICH IT'S NOT GOING TO BE THE CUT EDGE TRIMMED VERSION. EVERYBODY'S USED TO, EVEN WITH IF WE ALLOW BUFFALO GRASS, IT LOOKS A LITTLE DIFFERENT THAN WHAT PEOPLE WILL STEREOTYPICALLY THINK ABOUT THE GREEN LAWN OUT FRONT. SO WHAT KIND OF GRASSES ARE WE TALKING ABOUT IF WE'RE NOT DOING LIKE BER I KNOW ST ON STATE BERMUDA, BUT I GUESS YEAH, THAT'S NOT IN THE LIST RIGHT NOW. UM, OFF THE TOP OF MY HEAD, I KNOW THAT BUFFALO GRASS IS IN THERE. I CAN CERTAINLY SEND YOU GUYS OUT. JUST THE TEXAS A AND M UH, KIND OF PLANT LIST THAT THEY HAVE FOR NATIVE AND ADOPTIVE PLANTS FOR THE AREA. UM, AND THEY HAVE LITTLE PICTURES IN THERE WITH THEM IF YOU'D LIKE TO SEE THAT. OKAY. YEAH, PICTURES WOULD HELP. I JUST, YEAH. YEAH. I'M JUST STRUGGLING TO KIND OF PICTURE WHAT A, A FRONT YARD WOULD LOOK LIKE IN OUR VISION OF THE EDC VERSUS WHAT WE'RE USED TO. MM-HMM. . YEAH. THAT IS A STATE WATER. IT'S DEFINITELY A STATE WATER. SO I TOOK A, A BAG OF NATIVE POLLINATOR FLOWER SEEDS IN MY BACKYARD AND JUST DID LIKE A LITTLE PLOT. AND IT'S, IT'S PROBABLY ABOUT THIS TALL NOW. IT'S FLOWERING. IT'S VERY PRETTY AND IT'S VERY DIVERSE IN THE DIFFERENT TYPES OF PLANTS. IT'S ABOUT THIS TALL NOW. WE'VE HAD A LOT OF RAIN. I HAVEN'T, I HAVEN'T HAD TO WATER ANY OF THAT. AND IT'S, IT'S GROWN AND IT'S KIND OF JUST MAINTAINING AND TAKING CARE OF ITSELF. BUT THE, BUT THE YARD GRASS, LIKE THAT'S DRYING OUT 'CAUSE IT'S SO MUCH THINNER. I ASSUME THAT IT EVAPORATES FASTER OR SOMETHING TO THAT EFFECT. SO, SO WHAT'S THE CHEAPEST YOU CAN DO? BECAUSE THAT'S REALLY WHAT, WHEN PEOPLE ARE BUILDING NEIGHBORHOODS, THE DEVELOPER, I WOULD IMAGINE THEY'RE GONNA COME IN AND GO, HERE'S MY LIST OF OPTIONS. I'M GONNA GO WITH EMIT OR HIGH. THEY'RE GONNA GO WITH, I WOULD IMAGINE THE CHEAPEST POSSIBLE WAY. WHAT IS, WHAT IS THE CHEAPEST? BECAUSE RIGHT NOW IT'S BERMUDA ONE TREE IN THE CENTER AND THAT'S IT. SO WHAT WOULD THE CHEAPEST, UM, RIGHT NOW, I MEAN, 'CAUSE WE REALLY STARTED LOOKING AT THIS, UM, YOU'D STILL HAVE YOUR TREES AND I BELIEVE IT'D STILL BE ABOUT TWO TREES PER YARD. UM, AND THEN THEY COULD DO GROUND COVER. SO ANY OF THE GROUND COVERS THAT WOULD END UP ON THAT LIST WOULD BE ALLOWED. AND THAT'S PROBABLY GONNA BE WHAT MOST OF 'EM DO. GROUND COVER BEING BLACK, CREEPING TIME. YEAH. YOU COULD DO CREEPING TIME OR YOU COULD DO SOMETHING EVEN A LITTLE BIT TALLER. ANY OF THE EVERGREEN GROUND COVERS WILL WORK. I HAVE HEARD CLOVER, BUT I DON'T THINK THAT ONE'S GONNA WORK JUST BECAUSE OF, UM, WHERE ALL THE PESTICIDES COME OUT. BUT IT'LL, IT'LL DIE OFF. ALTHOUGH IT'S GROSS. NATURAL THEN, THEN HOW DO YOU, HOW DOES ONE NEIGHBOR STOP IT, SAY ONE NEIGHBOR, UM, IS REALLY INTO NATIVE GRASS, NATIVE, UH, FLOWERS AND THEN ANOTHER NEIGHBOR IS REALLY INTO BERMUDA LAWN. UM, AND SAY SOMEONE WANTS TO THEN STRIP OUT THEIR YARD. 'CAUSE I IMAGINE IF WE DO THIS, DOES THE OLD HOA REQUIREMENTS STILL HOLD OR DOES IT CHANGE BECAUSE WE'VE NOW NOTICED ALL THAT WORK? SO THE UDC DOESN'T CHANGE ANYTHING IN THE DEED RESTRICTIONS OR HOA REQUIREMENTS. STATE LAW CHANGED PROBABLY OVER 10 YEARS AGO THAT H HOAS HAVE TO ALLOW A REASONABLE, AND THEY DIDN'T DEFINE REASONABLE, BUT A REASONABLE AMOUNT OF, UH, ZERO ESCAPING. SO PEOPLE WOULD STILL HAVE TO FIGURE OUT WHAT THEIR HOA IS GOING TO ALLOW THEM TO DO, UM, IF THEY'RE WITHIN AN HOA. AND LET'S BE CAREFUL THAT WE'RE SAYING ZERO ESCAPING, NOT ZERO ESCAPING. 'CAUSE THAT'S WHAT THE DEVELOPERS WILL HEAR IS ZERO SCALE. THE REASON I I, THE REASON I'VE BEEN TALKING ABOUT THIS FOR A WHILE IS MANY PEOPLE HAVE HAD TO REPLANT THEIR ENTIRE LANDSCAPING TWO YEARS IN A ROW DUE TO THE DROUGHT. AND SO PART OF ME IS LIKE, IF THE CLIMATE IS CHANGING AND WE ALL RAIN IN A MONTH AND THEN YOU SPEND FOUR MONTHS WITH NO RAIN AND THE EXPECTATION IS, IS TO KEEP BUSHES AND NATIVE FLOWERS AND TREES ALL LIVING, OTHERWISE YOU GOTTA REPLACE THEM EVERY YEAR. BUT THE CLIMATE DOESN'T HOLD THAT. AND I'M NOT A ARBORIST OR ANYTHING, BUT I CAN TELL YOU THAT IT'S NOT WORKING RIGHT NOW. AND MAYBE IT'S JUST A TWO YEAR RUN. I DON'T KNOW. BUT THAT, THAT'S WHAT MAYBE YOU ALWAYS THINK ABOUT. THIS IS WE KEEP HAVING WATER ISSUES BUT WE KEEP PLANT TREES, WHICH I THINK ARE GOOD FOR WATER VAPOR AND COOLING. BUT UM, I DEFINITELY THINK THERE'S GONNA HAVE TO BE SOME GIVE AND TAKE. UM, CERTAINLY IT COULD BE ABOUT TREE SIZE OF WHAT THE MINIMUM TREE SIZE IS PLANTED BECAUSE ONCE IT'S ESTABLISHED YOU SHOULDN'T HAVE TO WATER. MM-HMM. . UM, SOMETIMES WHEN WE'RE SEEING THOSE TREES DIE OUT OR THE BUSHES DIE OUT, IT'S NOT ONLY DURING A FREEZE, IT'S BECAUSE THEY'RE NOT BEING WATERED APPROPRIATELY. ONLY ALLOW US TO WATER ONE DAY A WEEK. THAT CAN STILL BE AN APPROPRIATE WATERING TIME FOR ESTABLISHED TREE. UM, I KNOW IN THE CODE RIGHT NOW FOR WATER RESTRICTIONS, GRANTED IT'S NOT IN U TO C, THERE ARE ALLOWANCES THAT EVEN WHEN THEY'RE TRYING TO ESTABLISH THOSE NEW TREES, THAT THEY ACTUALLY DO GET A VARIANCE, EVEN WHEN WE'RE IN WATER RESTRICTIONS, THAT THEY COULD WATER ENOUGH TO, UH, TO ESTABLISH THE TREES BETTER DURING A DROUGHT OR DURING AT LEAST THEIR FIRST 30 TO 45 DAYS OF PLANT. WOULD IT BE [00:10:01] AN ISSUE? SO IF THE DEVELOPER GOES IN AND DOES WHAT THE REQUIREMENTS ARE, THEN THE HOMEOWNER WANTS TO, YOU KNOW, PUT IN THEIR LAWN AND MAKE IT FABULOUS LIKE A GOLF COURSE. THERE'S NOTHING THAT WOULD, YOU KNOW, PROHIBIT THAT THERE IS OR SO YOU COULDN'T, UNLESS WE DECIDE THAT WE DON'T WANNA REGULATE ANYTHING THAT I WOULD SAY WE DON'T HAVE TO REGULATE ANYTHING IN THE REAR YARDS. OKAY. UM, BUT IF WE'RE GOING TO DO A TRUE ESCAPE, WE NEED TO ACTUALLY LOOK AT SAYING THIS IS HOW WE'RE GONNA SAVE WATER. OKAY. IF YOU WANTED TO OPEN IT UP MORE, THAT'S THE FEEDBACK THAT WE'RE GONNA BE LOOKING FOR. SO THAT FOR RIGHT NOW IT'S GONNA BE REQUIRED AND THAT'D BE GOING FORWARD. WE CAN'T MAKE PEOPLE GO BACK. RIGHT. IT, IT DOESN'T EVER GO RETROACTIVE TO MAKE ANYBODY ELSE. BUT IF SOMEBODY WANTED TO THEN PULL THEIR LAWN OUT AND OR IT'S IN AN AREA WHERE THEIR TREES HAVE GROWN AND IT CAN'T GROW ANYTHING, THERE'S LOT OF I'M GONNA DO GROUND COVER BY RED. I COULD DO THAT NOW. PEOPLE LIKE ANOTHER THING. IT'S THE FUTURE OF OUR AREA UNLESS WE FIGURE OUT HOW TO MAKE IT THROUGH JUNE, JULY, AUGUST, SEPTEMBER WITHOUT WATERING. YEAH. UM, IS THERE A WAY, SO YOU GUYS ARE COMMUNICATING WITH P AND Z. IS THERE A WAY WE CAN GET ON THAT COMMUNICATION TOO? 'CAUSE WHAT I'D HATE TO SEE IS YOU GUYS GO BACK AND FORTH SEVERAL ROUNDS AND THEN ALL OF A SUDDEN IT COMES TO US AND WE GO, YEAH, WE DON'T LIKE THAT. AND SO THEN WHAT HAPPENS? YOU GUYS GO BACK, BACK AND FORTH. IT JUST SEEMS LIKE IF WE'RE IN IT, AT LEAST YOU GET A LITTLE BIT OF COMMENTARY FROM US ALONG THE WAY TO WHERE, 'CAUSE YOU'RE GONNA EXPECT US TO VOTE AFFIRMATIVELY FOR IT, RIGHT? WHATEVER COMES UP. YES. COMPLIANT. YOU GUYS, YOU GUYS THOUGHT THE SAME WAY PETER LIKE AT LEAST KIND OF KNOW WHERE WE'RE GOING. YEAH. I MEAN WITHIN, UM, THE OPEN MEETINGS ACT, YOU KNOW, I MEAN, I DON'T KNOW BECAUSE, 'CAUSE WE CAN'T, YOU KNOW, ALL COLLABORATE AND ALL THAT KIND OF STUFF. BUT AS LONG AS WE CAN SEE WHAT THEY'RE DOING AND SEE THE DIRECTION THEY'RE HEADED, THAT'D BE GREAT. AND THEN, YEAH, AND KEEP IN MIND, I MEAN TONIGHT ONE OF THE FIRST PRESENTATIONS IS AN UPDATE JUST TO LET YOU KNOW WHERE WE ARE IN SOME OF THE BIGGER CHANGES THAT ARE OCCURRING. UM, BECAUSE WE ARE TRYING TO SIMPLIFY THE CODE. THIS CODE, THERE'S A LOT OF THINGS THAT JUST DON'T MAKE SENSE. WE ARE REMOVING THE FORM-BASED CODE FROM THAT. IT'LL STILL FUNCTION BUT IT'LL MAKE MORE SENSE. IT WON'T BE THE FORM-BASED, WHAT WAS THE SMART CODE AND UM, TRANSECT AND THINGS LIKE THAT. WE'RE REALLY TRYING TO SIMPLIFY THIS AND TELL PEOPLE WHAT WE WANT, NOT JUST HAVE THEM HAVE TO GUESS WHAT THEY'RE READING THIS. UM, BUT YEAH, I THINK WE COULD, THERE'S A WAY THAT WE SHOULD BE ABLE TO AT LEAST PASS YOU SOME RED LINES AND SHOW WHAT WE'VE GOT GOING ON, UH, OUTSIDE . YEAH, I GUESS YOU CAN SEND IT TO DOTY AND DOTY KNOWS HOW TO GET IT TO US WITHOUT MEAN OBVIOUSLY WE CAN'T ALL HAVE CONVERSATIONS WITH YOU AND I GUESS, I DON'T KNOW, I DON'T THINK WE CAN. BUT YOU GUYS HAVE SAID THAT'S OKAY THAT YOU TALK SEVEN PEOPLE TALK TO A STAFF MEMBER ABOUT THE SAME ISSUE. BUT WHATEVER IT TAKES TO GET US JUST SIMILAR AND THEN YOU HAVE UM, CITY MANAGER AS WELL. BUT YEAH, WE CAN GET YOU THE REDLINES UM, TO DATE THAT PNZ HAS ALSO SEEN. I KNOW THAT WE'VE BEEN EVEN RECENT COMMENTS BACK LATE LAST WEEK AS WELL. SO IT'S, UM, WE HAVE A, IT'S A WORKING DOCK, BUT VERY MUCH SO. UH, I THINK ANOTHER THING I TALKED ABOUT WAS THE MONUMENT SIGNAGE BECAUSE IT SEEMS LIKE SIGNAGE TENDS TO BE AN ISSUE THAT POPS UP WITH BUSINESSES, BUT I KNOW THAT DOWNTOWN, UH, IS WANTING SOME SORT OF SIGNAGE FOR DOWNTOWN. MM-HMM. . BUT IT, FROM WHAT I WAS READING IN THE CODE, WELL THEY, OR WE, OR UNLESS WE DO A VARIANCE, THE ABILITY TO PUT A, A BIG SIGN, A BILLBOARD SIGN TYPE SIGN DOWN THERE IS NOT ALLOWED. OR I WAS EVEN THINKING WE GO DOWN 79 IF YOU HAVE A HUGE INDUSTRIAL PARK, ALL THESE THINGS COMING, AT SOME POINT EVERYBODY'S GONNA WANT SIGNAGE FOR IT. ESPECIALLY IF WE OWN ALL THE RETAIL AND WE HAVE ALL THAT DEVELOPMENT, PEOPLE ARE GONNA WANT THAT. BUT IT DOESN'T EVER SOUND TO ME LIKE OUR SIGNAGE, WE'RE NOT THE MOST LENIENT ON OUR SIGNAGE IN THE METRO AREA. AND I DON'T KNOW IF WE WANNA BE STRICTER AS A COUNCIL. WE WANNA LOOSEN IT UP A LITTLE. WHAT, WHAT'S OUR OVERALL THING? 'CAUSE I, I DON'T KNOW IF THIS IS HOW MANY YEARS HAS IT BEEN SINCE WE AS A BODY LOOKED AT THE SIGN CODE AND SAID WE LIKE OR DON'T LIKE WHAT IT'S DOING? THERE HAVE BEEN MINOR CHANGES, BUT THIS CODE WAS WRITTEN BACK IN 20 10, 20 11 TIMEFRAME. UM, I WILL TELL YOU THAT THERE IS A LOT. UM, AND I JUST RECENTLY A CONVERSATION OF WHAT SIGNAGE IS REALLY NECESSARY NOW THAT EVERYBODY'S GOING OFF OF THEIR GOOGLE MAPS OR WHATEVER. UM, FINDING YOU DON'T REALLY DRIVE BY AND THINK, OH, I'M GONNA STOP THERE. SO A LOT OF IT COULD BE JUST VISUAL CLUTTER. NOW, UM, BILLBOARDS TYPICALLY WOULDN'T BE ALLOWED, ESPECIALLY NOT IN THE DOWNTOWN AREA, BUT WE COULD DO CITY WAY FINDING SIGNS THAT WOULD BE OUTSIDE OF THE SIGN . UM, BUT A LOT OF DOWNTOWNS ARE DOING WAY FINDING SO YOU KNOW WHAT'S COMING. YOU CAN DO LITTLE KIOSK SIGNS SO THAT YOU CAN ACTUALLY HAVE A MAP OF WHERE YOU ARE. SO ONCE WE HAVE MORE THAN THE DIGITAL THING, WHAT IS THAT? WHAT IS THAT YOU, I MEAN YOU COULD DO A DIGITAL OR YOU COULD [00:15:01] JUST DO A STATIC MAP. OKAY. UM, THAT SAYS HERE'S WHERE YOU ARE. I MEAN KIND OF THINK ABOUT LIKE THE OLD MALL MAPS. OKAY. LITTLE KIOSK. BUT IT'D BE FOR THE DOWNTOWN AREA. UM, I THINK AS A DOWNTOWN COMES EXPANDS MORE. I THINK THAT COULD BE USEFUL. UM, WE DO HAVE THE WAY FINDING SOMEWHAT THE WAY FINDING SIGNS AROUND TOWN WHERE IT MOSTLY TALKS ABOUT THE DIFFERENT SUBDIVISIONS. MM-HMM. . BUT THOSE ARE ALWAYS, THAT'S A SEPARATE IS THAT THAT'S WHAT'S ON THE LIKE REDWAY JUST OFF SEPARATE. I HATE THOSE. AND I, I WOULD SAY THIS , I THINK THAT THE WHO THE COUNCIL TO TALK TO PEOPLE IN THE BUSINESS COMMUNITY BECAUSE I KNOW STAFF'S OPINION IS EVERYBODY USES PHONES AND, AND SIGNAGES AS IMPORTANT. NO, ONLY STAFF. IT WAS JUST, IT WAS A CONVERSATION THAT WAS HAD OF JUST, IS IT NECESSARY? WELL WHOEVER'S HAVING THAT, I WOULD SAY THIS HAS PROBABLY NEVER OWNED A BUSINESS BECAUSE EVERYBODY THAT OWNS A BUSINESS WANTS A SIGN. NOW WHETHER OR NOT, YOU KNOW, IT'S WORTH THE $40,000 TO BUILD ONE AND EVERYBODY CAN ARGUE. BUT IF WE GO DOWN TO WHERE, WHERE WE START LIMITING SIGNS AND I THINK THE WAYFINDER SIGNS, I NEVER UNDERSTOOD WHY THE CITY PUTS UP SIGNS THAT THEN THIS SUBDIVISION'S THIS WAY, THIS SUBDIVISION'S THIS WAY. TO ME IT'S LIKE THEY NEED TO PAY TO BE ON THERE AND WE OUGHT TO BE PROMOTING THINGS WITH HU BUT MEAN I'M THE EXACT OPPOSITE. I THINK WE NEED WHAT'S THAT? I THINK THEY DO PAY. YEAH. THE GUY T BILL. 'CAUSE I WAS LIKE, HEY, NO, WHEN THERE'S 10 OF THEM ON THERE AND YEAH, THEN YOU DON'T LOOK 'CAUSE YOU'RE LIKE MERITAGE, LENNAR. YEAH. YOU JUST SEE A FEW. THIS IS HERE AND THEN OH YEAH. IT'S NOT AS IMPACTFUL. SO THAT'S WHERE, YEAH, I DEFINITELY THINK THAT THE CITY CAN LOOK AT WAYFINDING. WE'RE CERTAINLY NOT GONNA REMOVE THE ABILITY FOR ANYONE TO HAVE A SIGN. UM, I KNOW ON SOME OF THE BUSINESSES THE SIGNS ARE PRETTY SMALL COMPARED TO THEIR ACTUAL BASE THAT THEY COULD HAVE A SIGN. SO THEY JUST GET THESE LITTLE TINY, I KNOW. UM, THERE'S ONE OVER BY UM, CHICK-FIL-A THAT IF YOU'RE LOOKING AT IT, IT'S A PRETTY LARGE AREA AND THEY HAVE THE SMALLEST SIGN OVER THERE. UM, SO DEFINITELY LOOKING AT SOME OPTIONS FOR THE BUSINESS OWNERS THAT THEY COULD POTENTIALLY GET A LARGER SIGN. A LOT OF THEM CAN HAVE A LARGER SIGN. IT'S JUST HOW THEY'RE MEASURING OR WHAT THEY HAVE FOR THAT. THEY'RE NOT GETTING THAT. UM, AND USUALLY IT'S MONUMENT SIGNS HAVE THE DISTANCE REQUIREMENTS SO YOU CAN ACTUALLY SEE THEM. AND THEN WE ARE A LITTLE BIT MORE STRICT ON THE MULTI-TENANT SIGNS. RIGHT NOW YOU'RE TAKING A LOOK THAT BECAUSE IF YOU HAVE TOO, AND MANY, IT'S KIND OF LIKE THE FIN SIGN. YOU CAN'T READ EVERYTHING AS YOU'RE COMING THROUGH ANYWAY OF HOW SMALL THE SIGNS AND HAVING TO BE THERE. AN ICE CREAM SHOP INSIDE THE HOME DEPOT SHOPPING CENTER. I FOUND OUT ABOUT A WEEK AGO, I DID KNOW WHAT WAS THERE AND I WOULDN'T KNOW TO GOOGLE THAT OR ANYTHING. AND I DON'T KNOW HOW THEY GET SIGNAGE, BUT, UM, I, I WOULD JUST SUGGEST EVERYBODY TALK TO BUSINESSES BECAUSE IF WE SPLIT INTO A PATH OF HOW DO WE MAKE 'EM SMALLER, THE MORE YOU DO THAT. I MEAN THAT'S ONE OF THE BIGGEST PUSHBACKS I HEAR FROM THE BUSINESS COMMUNITY IS WHEN YOU'RE TRYING TO DEVELOP SIGNAGE. AND I KNOW YOU CAN BE, I DON'T WANT IT TO LOOK LIKE LAS VEGAS DOWNTOWN WANTS SOME KIND OF BIG SIGN. 'CAUSE WE'RE GOTTA BE THE ONLY DOWNTOWN THAT MAIN STREET'S NOT THE MAIN STREET. AND SO HOW DO YOU PULL PEOPLE OFF? AND SO MANY PEOPLE IN HUDDLE DON'T EVEN KNOW WE HAVE A DOWNTOWN 'CAUSE THEY DRIVE BY AND THOSE GUYS WON'T SIGN. BUT UM, YES, A DOWNTOWN SIGN I KNOW HAS BEEN DISCUSSED INTERNALLY AND THAT WOULD JUST BE A CITY PROJECT. IT WOULDN'T HAVE TO BE PART OF THE SIGN CODE. SO IF IT THE SAY TO FILE THEIR OWN CODE, RIGHT. WE CAN'T MM-HMM. . YEAH. HOWEVER, THE WAY FINDING IS SEPARATE. IT'S IN THE SIGN ORDINANCE. BUT THAT WOULD BE SOMETHING THAT WE WOULD CONSIDER UNDER WAY FINDING NOT JUST A SIGN. SO IF IT'S SOMETHING, UM, THINK OF GROUND ROCK WHEN YOU'RE COMING INTO MAZE THAT ACTUALLY HAS THE LARGE UM, OVER MAY SIGNAGE THAT'S ALWAYS POSSIBLE. I KNOW THAT WE'VE TALKED ABOUT SOMETHING LIKE A, A SIGN OUT AT 1660 AS NORTH AND 79 POTENTIALLY. UM, JUST BECAUSE THAT'S A REALLY GOOD STOPPING POINT. BUT IF YOU HAD A SIGN THAT HAD COME IN SOON OR ANY ACTIVITIES OR ANYTHING LIKE THAT AND IT WAS MORE OF AN LED, THAT'S WHERE PEOPLE NATURALLY HAVE TO STOP. AND SO YOU CAN FACE IT IN A WAY THAT ALL FOUR, UH, DIRECTIONS WOULD BE ABLE TO SEE THE SIGN. SO THERE'S OPTIONS THERE FOR WAY FINDING IF THAT'S A DOWNTOWN GROUP WANTS TO LOOK AT. SO IF WE WANNA DO THAT DOWNTOWN, I THINK IT WOULD BE A GOOD IDEA TO LOOK INTO THE MAIN STREET PROGRAM AND TRYING TO GET SOME KIND OF A GRANT THROUGH THAT. WE HAVE TO, I BELIEVE BE A MAIN STREET CITY. YEAH, I KNOW. WELL WE APPLIED PROBABLY FIVE YEARS AGO, SOMETHING LIKE THAT. SEVEN YEARS AGO. YEAH. WE'VE BEEN DENIED. I THINK THERE WAS, UM, THERE'S SOME POINTS ON THERE THAT WE NEED TO FOCUS ON THE DOWNTOWN AREA OR THERE'S ALSO JUST DOWNTOWN ASSOCIATIONS. THERE'S OTHER THINGS OUTSIDE OF MAIN STREET, UM, TO LOOK AT FUNDING OPPORTUNITIES. ALLOW LED MM-HMM, , UH, WHAT ABOUT CHANNEL? I DON'T KNOW ALL THESE TERMINOLOGIES. CHANNEL LETTERING. YEAH. BUT WHAT DO WE NOT ALLOW [00:20:01] THAT PEOPLE, BECAUSE I MEAN WHEN PEOPLE PUSH BACK, WELL WHAT IS IT WE'RE NOT ALLOWING THIS TO MAKE THEM GO, OH MY GOD, I I WANTED A SIGN AND YOU GUYS ARE BEING MEAN. USUALLY IT'S BECAUSE THEY HAVEN'T READ THE SIGN ORDINANCE. OURS IS FAIRLY LENIENT. IT'S A ONE-TO-ONE FOR, SO FOR LINEAR FEET YOU GET ONE SQUARE FOOT OF SIGNAGE. UM, I HAVE SEEN SOME PLACES A TWO TO ONE. UH, HOW CAN YOU GO UP IF, IF WE HAD A HOTEL COME ALONG, UM, ONE 30, HOW FAR COULD THEY BUILD A SIGN UP ON FRONTAGE THAT'S ON THE FRONTAGE ROAD AT ONE 30 OFF THE TOP OF MY HEAD, WE RARELY GET THOSE. I KNOW THAT WE USUALLY THEY'RE TALLER BECAUSE WE HAVE DONE AN AGREEMENT WITH, SO LOWE'S, HOME DEPOT, HEB, THEY'VE ALL HAD SIGN VARIANCES TO ALLOW FOR LARGER SIGNS. AND WE'RE USED TO DOING THAT FOR THEM BECAUSE THEY COME IN WITH A MUCH LARGER SIGN PACKAGE. IT'S PART OF THE DEVELOPMENT AGREEMENT FOR THE AREA. IT'S PART OF THAT PUD UH, THAT'S HOW A LOT OF THOSE HAPPEN. IF YOU DO GET MORE SIGNAGE, IF YOU ARE IN THE UH, ALONG THE ONE 30 CORRIDOR, I ALWAYS HEAR HOME. I ALWAYS HEAR, UH, HEB WAS GONNA COME TO HUDDLE. BUT DUE TO OUR ASSIGNED REGULATIONS, THEY WENT TO THE ETJ. I DON'T KNOW IF THAT'S TRUE BUT NO, IT WAS WALMART AND IT IS TRUE. AND IT WAS ASSIGNED VARIANCE THAT OCCURRED AND BECAUSE THE VARIANCE, UH, WAS NOT APPROVED, SIGNED VARIANCES ARE NO LONGER REVIEWED BY THE ZONING BOARD OF ADJUSTMENT. THEY'RE NOW REVIEWED BY P AND Z AND THE WALMART DID GO OVER TO 79 AND RED. BUT 2000, HOW MUCH BIGGER OF A SIGN WERE THEY GONNA DO? LOOK, IT DID OUT THERE. THEY HAVE NOW. AND OUR CODE TODAY WOULDN'T ALLOW THAT. UH, OUR CODE TODAY WOULD'VE, OR IF SOMEBODY WAS COMING IN WITH THAT LEVEL OF A DEVELOPMENT, THAT'S WHEN I'M JUST WORKING ON A DEVELOPMENT AGREEMENT BECAUSE WE'LL ALLOW THEM TO HAVE THAT, THAT TYPE OF SIGNAGE SIMILAR TO HOW THE UH, NEWQUEST AMENDED THEIR PUD, ALL THE SIGNAGE WAS ALREADY IN THERE THAT WAS ALLOWED AND IT WAS DIFFERENT THAN WHAT THE CODE AT THAT TIME ALLOWED FOR 2006. UM, BUT YOU CAN WORK THOSE THINGS OUT WHO SEPARATE AGREEMENTS. BUT YES, THAT ONE VARIANCE SAID THAT'S A VERY REAL STORY FOR THE RECORD. I WASN'T HERE FOR THAT ONE. BUT I'LL READ. SO I WILL GET TO IF YOU REALLY WANT THE, UM, IF YOU WANTED TO, IT IS MORE LIKE WHEN, WHEN THIS COMES UP, I PLAN ON SHARING WHENEVER WE'RE ALLOWED TO SHARE WITH DIFFERENT PEOPLE THERE IN THE BUSINESS COMMUNITY TO FIND OUT IF WE'RE IN THE RIGHT PATH OR IF THIS IS STUFF THAT I DON'T WANNA SEND UP LIKE AUSTIN WHERE THEY SPEND ALL THE TIME TO MAKE A GREAT PLAN AND THEN THE ENTIRE PUBLIC, ONCE THEY READ IT PUSHES BACK AND IT GOES INTO LAWSUITS AND THEN THEY START ALL OVER AGAIN. I THINK THE BIGGEST THING THAT WE HAVE WITH OUR SIGN ORDINANCE RIGHT NOW, AND ONE OF THE COMPLAINTS I HAVE JUST INTERNALLY IS THAT IT'S SO SEPARATED SO THAT IF YOU HAVE A COMMERCIAL BUSINESS, YOU DON'T ALWAYS KNOW EXACTLY WHERE TO LOOK BECAUSE IF YOU'RE A COMMERCIAL BUT YOU'RE IN THE HISTORIC DISTRICT, YOUR SIGN PORTION IS GOING TO BE SOMEWHERE COMPLETELY DIFFERENT THAN JUST ANY OTHER COMMERCIAL BUSINESS. UM, YOU GO ASHLEY WASN'T THE, WASN'T A RECENT EXAMPLE OF ASSIGNED VARIANCE AS PART OF A DEVELOPMENT THE EVO PROJECT WHERE CORRECT. THAT WAS PART OF THE PD. WE CHANGED UP WHAT SIGNS THEY WERE ALLOWED SO THAT IT WAS VISIBLE AND THAT WAS WHAT, EIGHT MONTHS AGO. SO THERE ARE PARAMETERS. IT IS JUST IF THEY NEED A VARIANCE THEY CAN ASK FOR IT AND THEN IT COULD BE AGREED UPON. RIGHT. A LOT OF TIMES WHEN WE'RE SEEING THOSE VARIANCES, JUST TO BE FRANK, BECAUSE OF HOW VARIANCES HAVE TO BE REVIEWED BY STATE LAW, THAT IT CAN'T BE SELF-IMPOSED. WE USUALLY SEE THEM COMING THROUGH IN THOSE PLAN UNIT DEVELOPMENTS OR A SEPARATE DEVELOPMENT AGREEMENT. IT'S NOT TYPICALLY GONNA BE I WANT THIS BECAUSE I WANT THIS. UM, IT'S GONNA HAVE TO BE SOMETHING LIKE MAKE THAT EXTRA STEP. IT'S GONNA HAVE TO BE SOMETHING LIKE FAIR ENOUGH OR SOMETHING WHERE YOU SEE WHAT IT'S GONNA LOOK LIKE ON THE BUILDING AND YOU CAN SAY, HEY, WE NORMALLY WOULDN'T ALLOW THAT SIGN BUT IT LOOKS GOOD ON THAT BUILDING AND IT MAKES SENSE. YES. ALLOW THE SIGN. UM, AND SO THOSE ARE WHEN YOU GET THOSE LARGER, YOUR SIGNS COMING IN. BUT CLEARLY FOR THAT IT'S LIKE TO SEE A WAY WHERE WE DON'T NEED TO DO A DEVELOPMENT AGREEMENT OR A PUD. BUT YOU SAID STATE LAW KIND OF MAKE YOU DO THAT EXTRA WELL IF, IF YOU DON'T OPEN IT UP. YEAH. BUT IF, IF WE'RE GONNA, IF WE DIAL IT DOWN TO WHERE EVERY COUNCIL WANTS SOMETHING THEY GOTTA DO A DEVELOPMENT AGREEMENT OR A PUD, THEN WE JUST PUSH BACK A YEAR ON ANY KIND OF DEVELOPMENT. UM, BECAUSE WE DON'T, WE DON'T GET THROUGH A PUT OF DEVELOPMENT AGREEMENT VERY FAST. WELL I THINK IT DEPENDS ON WHAT THEY WANT THOUGH BECAUSE I MEAN IT MAKES SENSE TO ALLOW A LARGE BUSINESS LIKE A HOME DEPOT OR AN HEB TO PUT UP A LARGER SIGN. MM-HMM THEN OTHER BUSINESSES CAN, I WOULDN'T WANT TO GIVE EVERY BUSINESS THE RIGHT TO PUT THAT UP. I MEAN IT'LL LOOK RIDICULOUS OUT THERE IF THEY CAN SCD AND RICARDO'S AND EVERYBODY ELSE [00:25:01] HAD SIGNS OF THE SAME SIZE. RIGHT. BUT YOU CAN FIX THAT IN HERE TO WHERE LIKE BUILDINGS OVER 50,000 SQUARE FEET ARE ALLOWED. I THINK WE'RE SET UP NOW, BUT IT'S NOT ALWAYS EVEN THE SIZE OF THE BUILDING. I MEAN DO WE NEED SIGNS LIKE THAT FOR TYPE? YOU KNOW, I, NO, 'CAUSE HERE'S WHAT, HERE'S WHAT I GENERALLY SEE HAPPEN. SOMEONE WANTS IT, THEY PUT IT IN A POD, THEY COME TO COUNCIL AND THEY WENT REALLY WANTED TO SIGN VARIANCE AND NOW THEY GET LIKE 15 OTHER THINGS. THEY GET ALL TYPES OF VARIANCES THROWN IN THERE. 'CAUSE WE RE, THE PUT IS REWRITING THE CODE. AND SO EVERYTHING THEY DON'T LIKE THEY CHANGE IN THE PUT TYPICALLY THEY'VE BEEN REQUESTING IT. BUT I THINK WHERE WE, OR IS SPEAKING FOR MY TEAM, WHAT WE WERE GONNA SUPPORT WITH IS THAT IF SOMEONE COMES IN FOR A PUD THAT ALSO NEEDS TO BE THAT GIVE AND TAKE OF IF YOU'RE GONNA ASK FOR A PUD, YOU'RE GOING TO LOOK DIFFERENT THAN WHAT THE CODE LOOKS LIKE. AND WE HAVE BEEN GETTING A LOT OF PUDS THAT ARE ESSENTIALLY VARIANCE DOCUMENTS. UM, THEY DON'T LIKE THE LANDSCAPING, THEY DON'T LIKE THIS, THEY DON'T LIKE THAT THEY DON'T WANT TO BE TALLER. UM, SOME OF THE PUDS THAT WE HAVE, I THINK NEWQUEST IS PROBABLY THE BEST COMMERCIAL ONE THAT WE HAVE NOW. ONCE I WAS ABLE TO GET AND REVISE IT IS THAT'S WHY WE HAVE A NICER LOOKING ACADEMY. THAT'S WHY EVO ISS GONNA LOOK THE WAY IT LOOKS. THAT'S WHY WE HAVE BETTER THINGS IN THERE IS BECAUSE IT IS A GIVE AND TAKE. IT IS WE WILL ABSOLUTELY GIVE YOU A LARGER SIGN. I ALSO WANT THE PEDESTRIAN AREA IN FRONT OF THAT EVO SO THAT YOU HAVE SOME OF THOSE THIRD SPACES BUILT INTO THAT COMMERCIAL DEVELOP OR THAT. I GUESS THAT'S WHAT ULTIMATELY I GUESS I ALWAYS, I WAS TALKING THE MAYOR PROTE ABOUT THIS. I GET WHAT YOU'RE SAYING, BUT IT ALWAYS FEELS LIKE, I MEAN THIS WITH ALL DUE RESPECT, IT ALWAYS FEELS LIKE IT'S STAFFED WHO'S DECIDING WHAT THE GIVE AND TAKE AND WHAT IT SHOULD BE. AND NO ONE'S REALLY ASKED THE COUNCIL LIKE DO WE WANNA GIVE, DO WE CARE? DOES THE PUBLIC CARE, DO WE WANT THESE PEDESTRIAN SPACES? IT'S ALWAYS PEOPLE OUTSIDE THAT ARE ALWAYS, I ALWAYS FEEL LIKE DICTATE EVERYTHING AND THEN IT GETS BROUGHT TO COUNCIL WITH HERE'S WHAT THEY WANTED, HERE'S WHAT MADE 'EM, DO YOU HAVE ANY QUESTIONS? AND SOMETIMES I'M LIKE, YOU KNOW, I REMEMBER TALKING TO JAMES ABOUT THIS THAT SOMETIMES YOU FORCE BUSINESSES TO DO THINGS. IT JUST, IT'S JUST COSTING THEM MORE MONEY TO DO IT ALL IN EFFORT. SO THEY GET THEIR SIGN BRAND AND THEY MAY SPEND A HALF MILLION DOLLARS OVER HERE ON OTHER STUFF AND IT DOES THE PUBLIC CARE AND THE PUBLIC MAY CARE OR THE PUBLIC MAY SAY, WE DON'T KNOW WHY YOU'RE MAKING EVERYBODY LIKE WHY DOES THE O'REILLY'S OR WHATEVER, IT'S DOWN HERE, LOOK THE WAY IT DOES TO ME IT LOOKS ODD TO HAVE SPECIAL ORNATE LIGHTING AND THINGS LIKE THAT. SO DID THEY DO THAT ON THEIR OWN OR DID SOMEONE AT THE STAFF LEVEL MAKE THEM DO THAT IN AN EFFORT TO HAVE SOMETHING ELSE? AND THAT'S WHAT I'M TRYING TO GET THROUGH WITH ALL THIS IS IS AND AND I COULD BE A LITTLE BIT OFF BUT I, WE WERE JUST TALKING ABOUT THIS WHAT A WEEK OR TWO AGO THAT I FELT LIKE OTHER PEOPLE MAKE THE DECISIONS AND THEN TELL US WHAT WE SHOULD HAVE OR SHOULDN'T HAVE AND WHAT'S RIGHT TO HAVE. AND IN REALITY I'M LIKE MORE OF SOMEHOW GOT ENGAGED AT PUBLIC TO GO, WHAT DO YOU GUYS WANT HUNTER TO LOOK LIKE? 'CAUSE RIGHT NOW STAFF'S DETERMINING WHAT IT'S GONNA LOOK LIKE, HOW IT'S GONNA BE DONE AND WHAT THE GIVE AND TAKES ARE. AND I DON'T WANNA GET INTO DAY TO DAY. I JUST WANNA GET INTO WHERE LIKE SOMEHOW I'LL LET YOU GUYS KNOW WHAT IS IMPORTANT FOR THE BODY AND WHAT ISN'T FOR THAT. I REALLY HOPE THAT PEOPLE GET INVOLVED. I KNOW THAT WHEN WE WERE DOING THE COMPREHENSIVE PLAN, WE HAD MULTIPLE UM, OUTREACH OPPORTUNITIES WITH THE RESIDENTS AND A LOT OF WHAT WE GOT BACK WAS JUST ABOUT TRAFFIC. SO WE WERE ASKING WHAT DO YOU WANT THIS? WHAT DO YOU WANT THE CITY TO LOOK LIKE? AND WE GOT BACK, WE WANT LESS TRAFFIC AND SO WE WEREN'T GETTING THE ANSWERS 'CAUSE WHAT THEY'RE FOCUSED ON IS RIGHT IN FRONT OF THEM. IT'S NOT THE LONG-TERM VISION. SO THEN WE DO HAVE TO GO THROUGH THE VISION DOCUMENTS AND ADOPT THOSE AND THEN THAT'S WHAT THE UDC THEN'S BASED ON. AND THEN ONCE THAT'S ADOPTED, THAT'S WHERE STAFF THEN SAYS, OKAY, PEDESTRIAN AREAS AND THOSE PLAZAS AND THINGS THAT'S BUILT INTO THE CODE ALREADY. THAT'S BEEN THERE SINCE 2010. BUT WE'RE GOING TO BRING THAT A LITTLE BIT UP IF YOU WANT US TO BACK OFF IN ONE AREA. 'CAUSE THERE NEEDS TO BE THE GIVE AND TAKE. UM, AND SO WE BASE THAT OFF OF WHAT'S BEEN ADOPTED. SO THAT'S WHERE WE NEED THE FEEDBACK FROM BOTH PLANNING COMMISSION THAT'S BEEN APPOINTED BY COUNCIL AND THEN ULTIMATELY CITY COUNCIL TO SAY THIS IS WHAT WE WANT THAT CODE TO LOOK LIKE SO THAT STAFF CAN GO ENACT YOUR VISION ESSENTIALLY. I HATE REGIONAL DETENTION PONDS BUILT ON A CORNER. I HATE THE ONE OUT HERE BY 79 AND EDGE VALLEY LOOKS TERRIBLE AND I WISH THERE WAS A WAY SOME KIND OF CODE TO EITHER GO, YOU GOTTA GO UNDERGROUND OR THROW IT IN THE BACK AND HAVE A REGIONAL. BUT I HATE DE TENSION PONDS LITERALLY RIGHT UP FRONT 'CAUSE IT'S JUST LIKE AN EYESORE BUT, AND I DON'T KNOW IF YOU CAN PUT CHAIN LINK THAT'S A CHAIN LINK FENCE. I THINK THAT LOOKS TERRIBLE. I'M LIKE IF YOU'RE GONNA DO IT, I DON'T KNOW DRESS IT UP WITH A ROCK WALL. BUT AGAIN, UM, BEING PICKY, IT DEFINITELY WOULD NOT BE ALLOWED NOW. YEAH, WE CERTAINLY, UM, I KNOW THAT THERE WAS A PROJECT THAT WAS COMING IN UM, ON THE FAR SIDE OF TOWN AND THEY WERE ATTEMPTING TO DO THE SAME THING. AND WHEN STAFF ASKED THEM TO AMENITIZE THEIR DETENTION, THEY SAID ABSOLUTELY NOT. AND SO THAT'S ONE OF THOSE THINGS WHERE THERE ARE TIMES WHERE STAFF IS ASKING FOR THE SAME THING. 'CAUSE WE KNOW THAT WHEN YOU PULL UP THAT INTERSECTION IT DOESN'T LOOK GOOD AND WE WANT TO HAVE A BETTER FACE FORWARD FOR HATO. AND SO WE WILL HAVE A [00:30:01] LOT OF THOSE CONVERSATIONS AND WE GET A LOT OF PUSHBACK, UM, SAYING NO, WE WILL NOT AMENITIZE. AND THEY WANTED TO HAVE RESTAURANTS RIGHT THERE. UM, AND THEY WANTED IT TO BE THIS ANCHOR, BUT THEIR ANCHOR WAS GOING TO BE A MASSIVE CHAIN LINKED DETENTION BLOCK. WE'RE LIKE, WE REALLY DON'T WANT THAT. SO WE DEFINITELY HAVE THOSE CONVERSATIONS. I THINK THE DIFFERENCE IS THAT EVEN THAT ONE WAS GOING TO BE A PED, THEY, THEY SUBMITTED ONCE WE GAVE THEM COMMENTS BACK OF HEY WE WE'RE GONNA WANNA SEE A LITTLE BIT MORE AND THEY WALKED AWAY FROM THE PROJECT. BUT IT'S THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN AN AMENITIZED POND, LIKE WHAT YOU HAVE OUT IN THE CO-OP WHERE JACK ALLENS IS GONNA GO IN. YOU'LL BE ABLE TO WALK OUT THE BACK PATIO AND UM, BE WHERE ALL OF THAT DETENTION IS AND BE WITH THOSE PONDS AND THE WALKING AND EVERYTHING ELSE OR THE ONE OVER BY THE BANK AND EVERYTHING. WHAT ABOUT LIGHTING? WHAT ARE WE DOING ABOUT LIGHTING? UM, AND JUST IN GENERAL. YEAH. COULD WE GETTING YOU GOT THE DARK SKY MOVEMENT BLEEDING OVER UM, TO THE EAST SIDE, WHICH I LEARNED ABOUT. DARK SKY IS KINDA LIKE DEFINED AS WHAT LOOKS PRETTY AND WHAT DOES, AND THERE'S ALL DIFFERENT VERSIONS. SO DARK SKY, I KNOW THAT THAT CAME UP A LOT DURING OUR COMPREHENSIVE PLAN. A LOT OF PEOPLE HAVE BEEN SAYING, UM, THAT THEY DO WANT IT TO BE DARKER BECAUSE THAT'S ONE THING THAT THEY STILL FEEL MAKES IT FEEL LIKE A SMALL TOWN IS IF YOU CAN GO OUTSIDE, SEE THE STARS. UM, A LOT OF OUR CODE RIGHT NOW IS ALREADY DARK SKY COMPLIANT. WE DO NOT HAVE ANY QUOTE UNQUOTE DARK SKY ORDINANCE. UM, HAVING SOME THINGS COME THROUGH. I KNOW THAT COUNCIL RECENTLY APPROVED, SAY RECENTLY, PROBABLY IN THE LAST 18 MONTHS, UM, A PLAN THAT AT, I BELIEVE IT WAS NINE OR 10:00 PM HALF OF THE COMMERCIAL LIGHTS WOULD JUST TURN OFF AND BE AS NEEDED. UM, JUST BECAUSE THERE WAS THE ADJACENT RESIDENTIAL. SO MAKING SURE DOING, I THINK AS YOU'VE SAID, NOT TO MUCH OF YOUR WORDS, BUT DOING THE RIGHT THINGS FOR THE RIGHT REASONS FOR HOW TO. AND SO THAT'S ONE THING THAT I THINK EVEN PLANNING COMMISSION HAS BEEN LOOKING AT WITH THOSE PUDS COMING IN. IF IT'S DIRECTLY ADJACENT TO RESIDENTIAL KIND LIKE DRIVE THROUGHS THE DUMPSTERS, KEEP IT AWAY FROM THEM, LOWER YOUR LIGHTS, LET THEM HAVE THEIR UM, THEIR PEACE AFTER YOUR VISIT. UM, WHAT ABOUT DARK SKY WITH STATE LAW SAYS YOU CAN, AND PARAPHRASING, YOU CAN'T BE MORE RESTRICTED THAN WHAT DARK SKY IS. BUT THEN I FOUND OUT THAT DARK SKY IS JUST THIS, IT'S ALMOST LIKE YOU'RE, YOU'RE LEAD CERTIFIED, YOU'VE GOT LIKE BARELY LEAD AND THEN YOU'VE GOT WAY ABOVE AND BEYOND LEAD. MM-HMM. . AND SO AS LONG AS YOU CITY SAYS WHERE THIS NEW POLICY MAKES THIS DARK SKY CERTIFIED, YOU COULD BE WAY ON THE FAR EXTREME SIDE. AND STATE LAW DOESN'T TRUMP THAT BECAUSE IT JUST SAYS YOU CAN'T BE. IT'S LIKE POLITICIANS DIDN'T KNOW, KNOW YOU JUST CAN'T BE MORE THAN DARK SKY. BUT YOU CAN'T BE MORE THAN DARK SKY LEGALLY BECAUSE THE CITY GETS CERTIFIED AND YOU'RE DONE. SO I, I DON'T THINK WE WANNA LIKE, BECAUSE I KNOW WE'RE GONNA HAVE LIKE WAREHOUSES WANT LIGHTS, THEY'RE GONNA WANT SECURITY. BUT I GET IF THERE'S SOME WAY TO MAKE IT TO WHERE YOU DON'T BLEED INTO ALL THE RESIDENTIAL OR THE, THE LIVING PLACES. THAT'S WHAT WE HAVE RIGHT NOW. I THE MAJORITY OF PEOPLE THAT PUSH BACK ON LIGHTING, IT'S BECAUSE OUR POLES ARE ONLY 20 FEET, WHICH IS INTERESTING 'CAUSE SO ARE OVERPASSES. BUT APPARENTLY WHEN YOU'RE INTO A TRUCK COURT PEOPLE THINK THAT 20 FEET IS TOO SMALL OR THEIR TRUCKS MIGHT HIT IT WHEN THEY CAN GET THROUGH THE UNDERPASS JUST FINE. AND THE OVERPASSES UM, THE OTHER PART IS THEY UM, WE DO OUR CODE RIGHT NOW IN LUX NOT FOOT CANDLES. AND SO THAT'S GONNA BE CHANGING 'CAUSE EVERYBODY ELSE PRETTY MUCH DOES FOOT CANDLES. MM-HMM . SO, AND IT'S JUST A SIMPLE CALCULATION, BUT IT'S JUST, YOU GET A PHOTOMETRIC PLANNING, YOU'RE LIKE FIRST COMMENT, WE DON'T DO FOOT CANDLES, WE DO LUX. SO IT'S JUST A MATTER OF READING THE CODE BUT ALSO MAKING THE CODE WORK. UM, JUST NORMAL TERMINOLOGY OF THE AREA. ALSO, I KEEP THROWING OUT THE THINGS, BUT KEEP IN MIND THERE'S THINGS THAT WE CAN'T REGULATE ANYMORE TOO. SO YOU'LL SEE SOME DIFFERENCES THERE. THEY, WELL, WELL IT'S FUNNY YOU SAID BECAUSE WHEN WE DO PS WE, IT IF I'M NOT MISTAKEN NODDING. WHEN YOU DO A PUD THE DEVELOPER OPENS HIMSELF UP TO BEING REGULATED. RIGHT? LIKE ONE OF THE TRADE-OFFS COULD BE, FOR INSTANCE, I WANNA BUILD A NEIGHBORHOOD. I WANT SOME SI WANNA DO A POD. CAN THE CITY NOT SAY WE NEED YOU TO HAVE ARCHITECTURAL SHINGLES GOING FORWARD? WHEREAS WITHOUT THE PUNT YOU CAN'T DICTATE THAT. BUT ONE OF THE TRADE OFFS NOW IS WE DON'T WANT THE THREE TAB 'CAUSE THEY'RE GONNA BLOW OFF. AND WE'D RATHER DO THAT NOW. I MEAN WE CAN DO STUFF LIKE THAT, RIGHT? IT'S JUST, IT'S CONSIDERED A ZONING AMENDMENT SO IT'S DISCRETIONARY. SO IF THEY COME FORWARD AND STEP IS NEGOTIATING WITH THEM AND THEY WOULD SAY, WE WANT THIS AND STAFF WOULD SAY NO, WE WANT THAT. AND THEN COUNCIL, YOU KNOW, YOU BRING IT COUNCIL AND COUNCIL SAYS NO, I WOULD LIKE TO CHANGE THIS AND THAT. SO IT'S BUT FOR BUILDING MATERIALS. BUILDING MATERIALS, YEAH. BUILDING MATERIALS ARE DIFFERENT BECAUSE OF I THINK STATE ALL, ALL ORDINANCES. SO THAT'S [00:35:01] WHERE IT'S EVEN ORDINANCE, RIGHT? THAT'S WHAT I MEAN. WHERE I'VE SEEN IT IS WHEN YOU WANT SOMETHING LIKE FOR INSTANCE, I'VE SEEN CITIES HAVE A POINT SYSTEM, BUT THEY, BUT GETTING BACK TO THE, WHAT THEY DO IS THEY, IF IT'S COMMERCIAL, THEY PUT IT IN THE PROPERTY OWNERS ASSOCIATION OR IT'S RESIDENTIAL. THEY PUT THE BUILDING MATERIALS IN THE HOMEOWNERS AND MAKE THOSE TWO REGULATE. I DON'T THINK I'VE DONE A PUD SINCE THE STATE LAW, SINCE I'VE BEEN HERE WITH STATE LAW THAT SAYS YOU'RE GONNA HAVE TO DO MAINSTREAM THESE OTHER THINGS. 'CAUSE WE KNEW IT CAME OUTTA STATE LAW AND IT WAS PREEMPTED. SO WE'VE BEEN WORKING WITH THEM A LITTLE BIT DIFFERENT. WE CERTAINLY HAVE HAD A FEW DEVELOPERS COME IN AND THEY'VE, THEY'VE BEEN ASKING FOR LARGE MILL BUILDINGS ON 79. THAT PROBABLY IS NOT THE BEST SPACE FOR IT FOR HATO. UM, CERTAINLY THEY HAVE THEIR PLACE IN THE CITY BUT MAYBE NOT DIRECTLY ADJACENT TO THE RESIDENTIAL AND SOME OTHER AREAS. UM, I'M NOT SAYING IT RIGHT, THAT OVER 50 MULTI-FAMILY THING THAT CAME IN THAT WAS GONNA HAVE THAT HAD THE SLOPES. THAT WAS THAT THAT WAS THE PUD SAID STATE LAW THAT WE DID. SLOPES ARE NOT PUBLIC MATERIALS. NO, NO, NO, NO. BUT IT WAS A PUD. MM-HMM . AND SO WHAT I'M ASKING IS, ARE WE NOT ABLE, I'VE SEEN CITIES HAVE A POINT SYSTEM AND WHEN YOU WANT A B, C OVER HERE, THIS IS WORTH 0.5, THIS IS WORTH ONE. CAN YOU NOT HAVE OPTIONS THAT INCORPORATE IN IT? 'CAUSE OKAY, YOU WANT THE SLOPE A CERTAIN WAY. WE WANT ARCHITECTURAL SHINGLES. THERE YOU GO. NOW WE CAN'T MAKE THEM DO IT, BUT WE CAN MAKE THEM HAVE THE RIGHT SLOPE. SO WHAT WHAT I'M GONNA ASK SINCE I'VE SEEN SOME EDCS HAVE THE SYSTEM TO WHERE THEY'VE INCORPORATED WHAT THEY WANT THINGS TO LOOK LIKE AND THEN THEY ALMOST WRITE, I HATE TO SAY IT THIS WAY, BUT THEY ALMOST WRITE THE CODE TO WHERE YOU'RE NOT GONNA, YOU DON'T WANNA FOLLOW THE CODE. AND SO THEN YOU'RE FORCED TO THEN DO WHAT THE CITY WANTS IN TERMS OF BUILDING MATERIALS BECAUSE THIS IS TOO RESTRICTIVE. THEY PICKED ONE THING THAT'S LIKE, LIKE ROUND ROCK SAYS YOU CAN'T BUILD GARDEN STYLE APARTMENTS. MM-HMM . YOU HAVE TO BUILD A WRAP PRODUCT. AND THEY DID THAT BY HAVING CERTAIN CODE ON FIRE ESCAPES OR SOMETHING TO WHERE IT MADE YOU, IT DIDN'T SAY YOU CAN'T HAVE GARDEN. THEY MADE THEIR CODE TO WHERE YOU LOOK AT IT AND GO, I CAN ONLY BUILD A WRAP PRODUCT. AND SO NOW THEY FEEL LIKE THEY'VE BYPASSED STATE LAW 'CAUSE THEY'VE MADE SOME THINGS A CERTAIN WAY. THEY FOUND THE HOT BUTTON ISSUES THAT FORCE YOU TO DO IT. THAT'S WHAT I'M KIND OF GOING THROUGH, THINGS LIKE THAT. I DON'T WANNA GET IN LIKE MAKING PEOPLE DO SOLAR AND ALL THAT. BUT THERE ARE CERTAIN THINGS THAT I THINK THAT IN THIS COMMUNITY, IT SEEMS LIKE EVERYBODY CHEAPENS OUT SO MUCH TO SAVE A BUCK, BUT WE'RE GIVING 'EM A WHOLE BUNCH. OH MAYOR, IT'S THE FINE PORTION IS UP FOR ONE 30 IF YOU WANNA SEE IT. SO FREESTANDING, JUST SINGLE POLE. UM, STUCCO FINISH WOULD BE 24 FEET FROM THE FINISHED GRADE OF THE ROADWAY. AND THAT'S, THIS IS EXISTING RIGHT NOW AND THEN YOU TO DO 30 FEET IF IT'S THE MULTI-TENANT OR CENTER. AND THAT'S WHERE IT GETS INTO, IF YOU HAVE A RETAIL CENTER THAT'S OVER A HUNDRED THOUSAND SQUARE FEET, YOU CERTAINLY DO HAVE SOME THAT ARE LARGER THAN THAT. BUT AGAIN, IT WAS DONE THROUGH A FULL, UH, MASTER PLAN IN AN AREA. IF I CAN READ THIS, IT'S BEEN A FEW YEARS SINCE I, AND IT'S LIKE, AND LIKE 500 PAGES OR SOMETHING. UM, THERE'S A LOT OF PAPER TO PRINT CODE. YES. IT'S ONLY 360 2. UM, AND THEN THERE'S GOING TO BE, I SAY ONLY THAT'S ACTUALLY A PRETTY, THAT'S PRETTY SIMPLE . BUT UM, I THINK THERE'S GONNA BE AREAS WHERE WE CAN, WHERE WE'RE JUST GONNA STREAMLINE IT. SO IT'S JUST BE A LITTLE BIT DIFFERENT. BUT IF THERE'S THINGS THAT WE THINK THAT NEED TO BE IN THERE BECAUSE IT'S HU AND IT'S NOT JUST ABOUT THE HIPPO SIGNAGE THAT WE ALLOW EVERYWHERE. THAT'S SOMETHING THAT WE NEED TO KNOW. I KNOW THAT THAT'S SOMETHING THAT WE'VE BEEN DISCUSSING AT, AT THE PNC LEVEL OF WHAT DO YOU LIKE, WHAT DO YOU NOT LIKE? IT DOESN'T HAVE TO BE IN THE CITY. IF THERE'S SOMETHING THAT YOU TRULY LIKE IN AN AREA, LET'S SEE IF WE CAN GET THAT INTO THE CODE. AT LEAST HAVE A DISCUSSION TO REQUIRE THAT NEXT LEVEL. YOU GUYS DONE READY TO ADJOURN? DONE. THANKS AND I'LL GET THOSE EMAILS OUT TO YOU AS WELL. OKAY. THANK YOU. UM, ALL RIGHT, SO NEXT WE HAVE THREE ITEM THREE, TWO DISCUSSION AND POSSIBLE ACTION RELATED TO WORK SESSION TOPICS. WE'LL MOVE TO ADJOURNED AT SIX 40. * This transcript was created by voice-to-text technology. The transcript has not been edited for errors or omissions, it is for reference only and is not the official minutes of the meeting.