* This transcript was created by voice-to-text technology. The transcript has not been edited for errors or omissions, it is for reference only and is not the official minutes of the meeting. WE'LL CALL THE CITY COUNCIL [00:00:01] WORK SESSION FOR THURSDAY, AUGUST 15TH, 2024. THE ORDER ROLL. CALL. COUNCILOR THOMPSON. COUNCILOR THORNTON. COUNCILOR CLARK. HERE. COUNCILOR LAR. HERE. COUNCIL PORTERFIELD. HERE. MAYOR PROTIME. GORDON MAYOR. ALL RIGHT. FIRST ITEM THREE, ONE. DISCUSSION [3.1. Discussion of industrial development standards. ] OF INDUSTRIAL DEVELOPMENT STANDARDS. FOLLOW YOU. ALRIGHT, SO IF SOMEONE REACHED OUT, UM, A DEVELOPER AND, AND JAMES PRINTED OFF THE, THE STUFF HE GAVE ME AND, AND THEN I MET WITH JAMES AND, AND JAMES CORRECT ME WHEN I, WHEN I STEER, UH, , YOU STEERED, YOU STILL OFF? YEAH. UM, BUT IT APPEARS THAT OUR UDC IS WRITTEN MORE FOR LIKE SINGLE SMALL INDUSTRIAL BUILDINGS. 5,000, 10,000, 20,000. IT'S NOT DESIGNED FOR 600,000 SQUARE FOOT DEVELOPMENTS, MILLION SQUARE FOOT DEVELOPMENTS. AND PROLOGIS WAS A PUT, TITAN WAS SOME SORT OF PUT OR SOMETHING I THINK. AND SO A FEW OF THE GUYS THAT HAVE COME IN ARE LITERALLY COMING UP AGAINST SOME PRETTY STRENUOUS BUILDING COATS. AND ONE OF THEM IS JUST SITE PAINT WITH TREES. AND THIS PARTICULAR DEAL, UM, I THINK IT'S A LIVE OAK ONE, I CAN'T REMEMBER, BUT EVERY LITTLE CIRCLE YOU SEE IS A TREE. AND IN ORDER TO BUILD THEIR THING THEY HAVE TO DO 916 TREES ALL THE WAY AROUND. AND UM, WE DIDN'T EVEN ENGAGE WITH AN ARBORIST MAKE IT BECAUSE THE CANOPIES WOULD BE TOO MUCH BIGGER. SO TALKING TO JAMES, NOT PUTTING WORDS IN YOUR MOUTH, BUT THE UDC, WHILE IT'S GETTING REWRITTEN, WE'VE GOT THIS PROBLEM MAYBE WITH THE U, WITH THE UDC CURRENTLY TO WHERE PEOPLE WHO ARE BUILDING DEVELOPMENT SITES, TREES BEING ONE OF 'EM, LIGHTING AND OTHER THINGS. SO WHAT I SUGGESTED WAS WE HAVE A COUNCIL MEETING OR A WORKSHOP TO DISCUSS THE ISSUE. IF IT IS, IF IT'S NOT AN ISSUE AND WE'RE LIKE, NOPE, THAT'S THE CODE, THEN I THINK WE SHOULD JUST LET THE DEVELOPMENT COMMUNITY KNOW THAT IF YOU'RE GONNA BUILD A, HOW MANY, I DON'T KNOW HOW MANY SQUARE FEET THIS IS, BUT IF YOU'RE GONNA BUILD THIS DEVELOPMENT, YOU HAVE TO PUT 916 TREES AND YOU HAVE TO KEEP 'EM ALIVE. IF IT'S SOMETHING WE NEED TO WORK WITH, THEN WE NEED TO HURRY UP AND FIGURE OUT WHAT THE SOLUTION IS SO THAT STAFF KNOWS WHAT TO TELL THEM. 'CAUSE RIGHT NOW THE MESSAGE IS KIND OF, YOU GUYS GOTTA FIGURE IT OUT AND THEY CAN'T. UM, LIGHTING WAS ANOTHER ISSUE. HEY, BEFORE WE JUMP TO ANOTHER ISSUE. SO ON THE TREES, WE ALREADY, WHEN WE DID THE REWRITE, WE ALLOWED THEM ON INDUSTRIAL SPACES TO PLANT TREES OR GET THEM EQUIVALENT COST OF THE TREE SO WE COULD USE IT IN THE PARKS AND OTHER PLACES. SO IT'S ALREADY COVERED IN THE UDC. SO I DON'T THINK WE NEED A CHANGE UNLESS I'M READING IT WRONG, OF WHAT WE DID BEFORE HAS, AND THAT ALREADY CAME TO COUNCIL AND WE ADOPTED THE CHANGE THAT WENT THROUGH P AND Z WITH THE CHANGE WHERE WE CORRECT. SO I, I DON'T SEE WHAT THE ISSUE IS THERE. YEAH, I'M JUST CURIOUS IF THIS DEVELOPMENT HAS GONE THROUGH P AND Z BECAUSE I, MY UNDERSTANDING IS THAT WHENEVER SOMETHING IS BROUGHT TO THIS, BROUGHT TO THEM, THEN IT'S NEGOTIATED AND IT'S TALKED THROUGH AS TO, IT'S NOT NEGOTIATED ANYMORE. WE HAVE A RULE THAT SAYS IF THEY DON'T WANNA DO THIS NUMBER OF TREES, THEY CAN PAY A FEE IN LIEU OF PUTTING TREES. MM-HMM. . SO THAT WE CAN THEN, AND IT GOES INTO A TREE FUND. WE EVEN TALKED ABOUT ALLOCATING IT. WE HAD TO GO INTO A TREE FUND TO BE SPENT FOR TREES. DO YOU REMEMBER ALL THIS CONVERSATION? NO. MR. MAYOR, WHEN WE DID THIS LIKE A YEAR AGO. YEAH. WHAT I, I THINK WE'RE THE POINT WE'RE MISSING. THE OVERALL POINT IS IF YOU WANT INDUSTRIAL DEVELOPMENT, YOU JUST TAXED EVERY DEVELOPMENT. WE, WE DIDN'T MAKE PROLOGIS DO THAT. WE DID A PO AND WE LET PROLOGIS NOT HAVE TO BUILD, BUT THEY DON'T HAVE TO DO THIS BECAUSE WE LET THEM OUT. AND SO I THINK THE DISCUSSION, WHAT I'M LOOKING FOR HERE IS, IS UH, IS THIS GONNA BE UNIFORM OR IS IT, IF YOU'RE A LARGEST AND YOU'RE SEXY AND WE LIKE IT, WE'LL DO A PUT AND YOU GET TO SKIP ALL THE FEES. OR WE OVER PENALIZING DEVELOPMENT, LIKE WE SAY, WE'VE WON INDUSTRIAL, WE GOT A WHOLE MEGA SIDE OF INDUSTRIAL COMING. ALL OF 'EM HAVE THIS PROBLEM. AND IT'S NOT A PROBLEM THAT WE DON'T HAVE THIS PROBLEM WITH HOMEOWNERS AND HOMES. YOU BUILT THAT. WHAT'S THE CODE? IT IT IS WHAT? IT'S NOT BASED ON LINEAR FEET. IT'S BASED ON IMPERVIOUS COVER OR SOMETHING. RIGHT. ONCE YOU GET INTO MULTIFAMILY, YEAH. SO INDUSTRIAL IS 10% OF 10% OF YOUR SITE. UM, SO THAT'S WHERE I THINK THE DIFFERENCE IS GONNA BE IS I KNOW THIS ONE WELL, THEY HAVE THE ABILITY TO DO THE 50%. UH, THE SKYBOX PROLOGIS SITE WAS A LITTLE BIT DIFFERENT. THAT WAS A DA. UM, PRIOR TO THE ANNEXATION, NOT A PUD. UM, WITH PUDS WE USUALLY HAVE THE TRADE OFF, UM, TO WHERE YOU SAY, I WANT TO GIVE YOU A LITTLE BIT BETTER OF A DESIGN ON [00:05:01] THE BUILDING OR SOMETHING AND THEN WE CAN BACK OFF CERTAIN THINGS. WE USUALLY SEE THAT WITH THE UM, MULTIFAMILY, UM, WITH EVERYONE ELSE. WE SAY, HEY, WE DO HAVE THIS CLAUSE. UM, ACTUALLY ONLY INDUSTRIAL DEVELOPER AT THE TIME THAT THAT WAS WRITTEN WAS TITAN AND THEY ACTUALLY WERE THE ONES WHO ACTUALLY SIGNED OFF ON IT AND SAID THAT WOULD BE AMAZING IF WE COULD DO THAT WORK DIRECTLY WITH THEM TO GET THE LANGUAGE DONE. UM, KNOWING THAT WE'RE LIKE, WELL YEAH, BUT SOME OF THE SITES CAN TAKE MORE TREES, SOME OF THEM CAN'T. SO EVEN TITAN DOESN'T USUALLY GO UP TO ALL UM, 50%. THEY'VE GONE A LITTLE BIT LOWER THAN THAT AS WELL. BETWEEN 50% IT'S UM, THE CODE IS UM, GONNA BE IN THE LANDSCAPING SECTION AND IT SAYS FOR INDUSTRIAL MANUFACTURING USES, IF YOU CAN'T FIT ALL OF THE TREES ON SITE BECAUSE IT'S 10% OF YOUR FULL BUILDABLE AREA, UM, OF COURSE MINUS YOUR ANY DETENTION AREAS AND MOST PLACES DO HAVE DETENTION ON SITE. SO IT IS NOT AS DENSE AS THIS. UM, THAT YOU ARE ABLE TO PAY A FEE IN LIEU, UM, APPROVED BY PLANNING COMMISSION THAT WOULD THEN GO INTO A TREE FUND. AND THEN UM, WE DID THAT BECAUSE AT THE TIME OF THE CONCRETE PLANT IT WAS OVER HERE THAT WANTED, NO, THAT ONE DID IT. THERE'S A FEW. TITAN REALLY BROUGHT A LOT OF IT TO ATTENTION OF LIKE, HEY, THIS IS A LOT OF TREES AND WE HAVE THESE CROSS DOCKS AND ALL THOSE TREES ARE A LITTLE BIT PROBLEMATIC. AND IT WAS LIKE, YEP. HOW? HOW WOULD YOU WANT US TO ACTUALLY RECTIFY THAT? UM, THE MAIN, MOST OF THEM JUST AREN'T AS DENSE AS THIS. AND THAT IS ONE THING THAT UM, STAFF HAS DISCUSSED WITH THIS DEVELOPER. UM, THEY STATED THAT THEY WOULD NOT PAY THE FEE AND THEY WOULD RATHER ASK FOR VARIANCE. AND WE SAID THAT WAS THEIR OPTION, UM, TO ASK FOR VARIANCE. THEN THIS TITAN PLAN, HOW DID THEY GET AROUND? HOW DID THEY GET AROUND? NOT HOW MOST OF THEM, THEY'VE DONE THE FEE AND LIE 'CAUSE THAT'S WHAT THEY HAD ASKED FOR AND THAT'S WHAT WE HAD UM, AT THE TIME THAT THEY WERE ESSENTIALLY OUR OWN INDUSTRIAL DEVELOPER, WHICH SHOULD NOW DRAMATICALLY INCREASED AT THE EN LIVO. AND IT'S SOMETHING THAT WE ARE DEFINITELY DEVELOPER IS WILLING TO DO IT AND THEY'RE HERE. I DON'T SEE WHY YOU DIDN'T WANT GET, YOU JUST DISMISSED WHAT I SAID, SORRY. HEIGHTENED DID IT. AND SINCE THEN WE'VE SUBSEQUENTLY DRAMATICALLY INCREASED THE FEE. SO THEY DID IT AND MAYBE IT'S 50,000 NOW THE NEW PEOPLE DO, IT'S HALF A MILLION DOLLARS AND SO NOW ALL OF A SUDDEN YOU'RE NOT COMPARING, I I DON'T KNOW THE NUMBERS. I'M JUST SAYING WE HAVEN'T CHANGED THE FEE FOR TREES. THAT HASN'T CHANGED. WHAT'S THE FEE THAT, WHAT'S THE FEE THAT HE WAS TALKING ABOUT A YEAR AGO WE CHANGED. WE DIDN'T SAY WE ALLOWED THE FEE TO EVEN BE ABLE TO BE PAID AND GO UP. THEY HAVE TO GO GET A QUOTE OF HOW MUCH THESE TREES WOULD COST AND THEN THAT'S THE NUMBER. IT'S BASED ON MARKET WHAT IT COSTS TO BUY TREES. THERE'S NO LIKE FEE, LIKE WE'RE JUST ARBITRARILY PROPOSING SOMETHING. THEY CAN GET THREE QUOTES AND THEY TAKE THE MIDDLE QUOTE IS WHAT I REMEMBER WE SAID THAT WE WOULD DO IT AND UM, AND THIS ALL CAME TO COUNCIL AND WE APPROVED IT AND DEBATED IT. YOU DON'T REMEMBER ANY OF THIS? LIKE I JUST FEEL LIKE RE WHAT WE ALREADY DID AS A COUNCIL, I COMPLETELY REMEMBER DEBATING IT. THERE'S ALWAYS AN UNINTENDED CONSEQUENCE. DID I KNOW THAT EVERY A HUNDRED THOUSAND SQUARE FOOT BILLION WAS GONNA BE REQUIRED TO PLANT 126 TREES. NOW WHEN THE SCHOOL DISTRICT COMES, WE SAY YOU GUYS DON'T HAVE TO PLANT ALL THOSE TREES, JUST PLANT SOME. AND WE KEEP GIVING VARIANCES. WE HAD THE DEVELOPMENT ON ED SCHMIDT, I FORGOT THE NAME OF THAT DEAL. WE GAVE THEM VARIANCES. WE KEEP GIVING VARIANCES TO EVERYBODY. AND SO IF YOU KEEP GIVING VARIANCES TO EVERYBODY, AT SOME POINT YOU HAVE TO SIT BACK AND GO, DOES A CODE NEED TO BE CHANGED? OTHERWISE YOU JUST CREATE WORK ON STAFF. SO WHAT IS IT THAT WE REALLY WANT? IF THIS IS WHAT WE WANT, WE SHOULD JUST TELL EVERYBODY THIS IS IT. AND IF YOU DON'T WANNA DO THIS YOU HAVE TO PAY AN EXTRA TAX. AND THAT'S WHAT IT IS. BUT THEN ME AS A COUNCIL CAN'T GO AND PICK AND CHOOSE WHO WE'RE GONNA GIVE A VARIANCE TO AND WHO WE'RE NOT TO THE SCHOOL DISTRICT HAS TO START DOING THIS BECAUSE WHY WOULD YOU GIVE THEM A BREAK BUT YOU'RE GONNA CHARGE EVERYBODY ELSE THEY NEED TO DO THIS OR IS THE CODE BROKE? WELL 'CAUSE THE DIFFERENCE IS THERE ARE SOME SECURITY THINGS FOR CHILDREN IN ACCESS THAT'S NOT TRUE. THAT'S, I'M TELL YOU THAT'S NOT TRUE. IT IS TRUE BUT SO YOU JUST DON'T LISTEN. THAT WAS ONE DEAL. THE OTHER ONE WAS LIGHTING AND I DON'T UNDERSTAND, I, I DON'T REMEMBER THE WHOLE THING. I DON'T HAVE THAT HERE. BUT WE'RE NOT ALLOWING WALL PACK LIGHTS. RIGHT? WE DO ON THE REAR OF BUILDINGS BUT NOT ALL THE WAY AROUND THE BUILDING. WE PREFER TO HAVE DIFFERENT LIGHTS UP AND THE CODES JUST TOUCH. OKAY. AND SOME OF THESE THAT WE'RE BUILDING, UH, THERE'S ALSO DEALING WITH LIGHT POLES CAN'T BE MORE THAN THEY DON'T. THEY DIDN'T WANT THE HEIGHT, THEY WANTED LESS AND THERE WAS AN ALTERNATIVE LIGHTING AND THAT IN THE CODE WHERE THEY CAN ACTUALLY PROVIDE AN US AN ALTERNATIVE LIGHTING PLAN, UM, TO SHOW WHY THEY WOULD WANT A DIFFERENT SIZE LIGHT THERE. UH, ON THIS SPECIFIC REQUEST IT WAS THAT THEY SAID THAT UM, 18 WHEELERS AND THE LIGHTS WOULD COMPETE. THAT WOULD BE A HARD PUSH JUST BECAUSE 18 WHEELERS GET UNDER A 12 FOOT BRIDGE JUST FINE. THEY SHOULD BE ABLE TO GET UNDER A 25 FOOT LIGHT BULB THE SAME. UM, IF THEY WANT SOMETHING TALLER THAT'S FINE. THEY CAN PROPOSE THAT. THEY JUST HAVE TO SHOW HOW IT MEETS THE SPIRIT OF THE CODE AND THEY WERE UNWILLING TO USE IT AND [00:10:01] THAT'S ALSO IN THE CODE THAT THEY'RE ALLOWED TO JUST REQUEST IT. AND AS LONG AS IT'S REASONABLE WE CAN APPROVE. RIGHT. NO I TOTALLY GET ALL THE REQUESTS AND ALL THE VARIANCE. I THINK PEOPLE ARE TRYING TO FIGURE OUT, I TOLD JAMES IF WE'RE GONNA BUILD HOW MANY MILLION SQUARE FEET ARE WE LOOKING AT COMING TO TOWN OF INDUSTRIAL? IF YOU HAD TO, IF YOU HAD TO WA IT, I MEAN IT'S GONNA BE . I THINK WHEN THE CODE WAS WRITTEN, I THINK IN 2010 THE INTENT, AND I THINK IT WAS THEY GOT WHAT THEY WANTED FOR THE 2010 APPROVAL IS THE CODE WAS CERTAINLY NOT SET UP TO PROMOTE INDUSTRIAL OR DENSE INDUSTRIAL DEVELOPMENT, NORMAL MULTIFAMILY. WHICH IS WHY WE DIDN'T HAVE A GARDEN STYLE APARTMENT COME IN UNTIL 2018. UM, AND ALSO THE INDUSTRIAL DEVELOPMENT REALLY DIDN'T START UNTIL 2018. UM, BUT THE CODA SET UP TO HAVE INDUSTRIAL AREAS THAT ARE NOT AS DENSE AS WHAT THIS PROPOSAL IS. UM, CERTAINLY I THINK IF YOU LOOK AT THE CAVAL SITE, FEW OTHERS, THEIR ONLY REQUIREMENT, THEY HAD A VERY SMALL AMOUNT BECAUSE THEY WERE STILL ABLE TO GET CREDIT FOR THE TREES THAT WERE IN THE FLOODPLAIN BEHIND THEM AND SOME OTHER ITEMS. SO YOU DON'T NORMALLY SEE THIS LARGE OF A TREE REQUIREMENT BECAUSE THEY'RE USUALLY NOT GOING THAT DENSE BECAUSE THEY ALSO HAVE TO MOSTLY HAVE DETENTION ON SITE. THIS'S BEEN A LITTLE BIT DIFFERENT BECAUSE THEY DON'T HAVE TO DETAIN ON SITE BECAUSE OF THE SPINE RUB AND SOME OTHER WORK THAT'S GOING ON OVER THERE. SO THEY CAN DO MORE OF A REGIONAL SCENARIO. UM, BECAUSE IN THE CODE YOU ARE ABLE TO TAKE OUT THE DETENTION PONDS OF THE POPULATION FROM YOUR BUILDABLE SITE AREA, THAT TYPE, BUT REALLY IT'S SITE SPECIFIC ON THE 10% ON WHAT REALLY COUNTS TOWARDS YOUR 10%. THIS ONE WOULD HAVE MORE OF IT JUST BECAUSE THEY'RE NOT DETAINING ANYTHING ON SITE. THERE'S NOTHING COULD REALLY SUBTRACT OUT. IT GOES TO IRONWOOD WEBSITE TOO, RIGHT? UM, I THINK THEY HAVE A LITTLE BIT MORE DETENTION. SO THERE WERE SOME THINGS THAT WE COULD TRACK OUT IS THAT THE TWO BIGGEST ISSUES THAT ARE COMING UP WITH OUR HAVING THE LIGHTING AND THE TREES? UM, TREES I WOULD SAY MORE SO. AND IT'S USUALLY JUST HEY, HOW DO WE GET AROUND THIS ONE? HEY HERE ARE THE PROVISIONS IN THE CODE. WE DON'T REALLY HAVE PEOPLE SAYING THAT THEY REFUSE TO PAY SIMILAR TO THIS ONE. UM, ON THE WALL PACKS, TYPICALLY IT'S HEY, WALL PACKS HAVE TO GO HERE. UM, ON THE BACKSIDE OF THE BUILDING CAN YOU SWITCH THOSE OUT, THIS OTHER LIGHTING STAND THAT YOU'VE ALREADY PLANNED FOR THE BUILDING? AND IT'S USUALLY JUST YEP, SURE, NO PROBLEM. EVEN ON IRONWOOD THEY HAVE WALL PACKS ON YOU. IT'S LIKE HEY, CHANGE THOSE WS TO S'S ON YOUR PLAN AND YOU'RE GOOD. UM, AND THEN THAT'S DONE. THEY DON'T HAVE, I HAVE, THIS IS THE FIRST TIME I'VE EVER HEARD THE LIGHT POLE HEIGHT WAS AN ISSUE , BUT THIS IS ALSO THE FIRST TIME WE'RE STARTING TO HAVE INDUSTRIAL DEVELOPMENT IN THE CITY. UM, WE'VE HAD A LOT OF OTHER INDUSTRIAL DEVELOPMENTS AS FAR AS IRONWOOD, TITAN, A FEW OTHER BUILDERS IS THE FIRST ONE I SAID IT ANY DIFFERENT LIGHT POLE SIZE. BUT I MEAN IRONWOOD, NOT IRONWOOD COPY THIS POINT. LIKE HAVE THEY GOTTEN THROUGH THIS? DO THEY HAVE A SITE DEVELOPMENT PERMIT OR THEY HAVE WELL BUILDING PERMITS. YEAH, THEY'RE DONE. YOU GUYS ARE ALL DONE AND READY TO BREAK GROUND. YEAH, BUT WE'RE WE BROKE GROUND? YES. OKAY. YES. THEY BROKE A LOT OF GROUND . WELL I MEAN THEY'RE LIKE IN TERMS OF GOING VERTICAL 'CAUSE YOU GOT PEOPLE OUT DOING DIRT WORK AND THEY'RE STILL WORKING ON BEFORE THEY GO VERTICAL. THAT'S WHY I BROUGHT IT UP MORE FOR OR FOR A DISCUSSION. UM, I THINK BETWEEN THE IMPACT FEES WE'RE LOOKING AT CHARGING PEOPLE, UM, I THINK WE'RE GONNA HAVE A DEAL SET UP WHERE IT'S AN AUTOMATIC FEE, UM, TO A LOT OF THE PEOPLE THAT BUILD. UM, THESE ARE THE SAME GUYS WHO TURN AROUND AND THEN TAKE MONEY OUT OF OUR GENERAL FUND BY GIVING THEM TAX BREAKS TO DO THINGS. AND IF WE JUST DIDN'T FORCE SOME OF THESE THINGS ON 'EM, WE MAY NOT BE GIVING THEM SOME OF THESE GUYS INCENTIVES TO DO WHAT THEY HAVE TO DO. BUT I THINK IT'S DEFINITELY A GOOD CONVERSATION TO HAVE. UM, KEEP IN MIND WHEN WE DID THE LANDSCAPE UM, DISCUSSION A FEW, GOSH WEEKS AGO, I WANNA SAY UH, MAYBE A FEW MONTHS AGO NOW, UM, THAT WAS ANOTHER THING THAT WE'VE BEEN, I MEAN JUST STAFF HAD BEEN NOTICING LIKE, HEY ASTERISK THIS ONE, WE ARE GONNA HAVE A DIFFERENCE OF THE LANDSCAPING TAKING INTO ACCOUNT WHAT COUNCIL HAD PROVIDED AT THAT POINT AS FAR AS MORE LOW WATER, MORE NATIVE PLANTS, THINGS LIKE THAT. BUT ALSO THE RATIO, UM, TWO LARGE TREES AND FOUR SHRUBS COVERED FIVE AND SQUARE FEET, UM, CAN BE SIGNIFICANT NUMBER OF TREES. I THINK YOU'LL SEE A DIFFERENCE IN THE PROPOSAL WITH THE NEW DEVELOPMENT CODES COMING OUT. UM, SO IT'S CERTAINLY NOT LOST ON US. THAT IS A . UM, AND I THINK THAT WAS THE INTENT OF THE CODE AGAIN AT THAT TIME, JUST READING THROUGH EVERYTHING, THEY DIDN'T WANT THAT DEVELOPMENT AT THAT TIME. I THINK FOR HOWTO WAS WHEN THAT CODE WAS ORIGINALLY ADOPTED AND WHERE IT'S NOW TWO VERY DIFFERENT HOWTOS A DISTANCE. SO WOULD THE SOLUTION JUST BE ASKING FOR A VARIANCE? UM, THE ONLY ISSUE I CAN THINK OF WITH THE VARIANCE THAT'S USUALLY PROBLEMATIC IS 'CAUSE A LOT OF THAT IS SELF-IMPOSED. AND SO USUALLY YOU CAN'T GET AS MUCH STAFF SUPPORT. [00:15:01] I KNOW THAT NOW WE HAVE A FEW DIFFERENT CHANGES IN UM, AS FAR AS THE ECONOMICS THAT YOU CAN ACTUALLY, THAT THE STATE LAW ACTUALLY CHANGED. SO THERE COULD BE AN ARGUMENT. MOST PEOPLE DON'T WANNA ACTUALLY MAKE THE ARGUMENT. I THINK HAVING BEEN IN THIS FOR 23 YEARS, THERE'S A LOT OF WAYS TO MAKE THE ARGUMENT TO GET YOUR CASE THROUGH. UM, THAT IS ONE OF THE REASONS WHY WE'RE LIKE, WHAT'S THE EASIEST WAY TO FIX THIS? SO THAT WE'RE STILL, UM, DOING WHAT WE HAD HEARD RESIDENTS WANTED AS FAR AS TREE CANOPY AND TREE COVER, WHICH WE'RE LIKE, WOW, THIS IS A GREAT WAY TO STILL GET IN THE TREE CANOPY AND THE TREE COVER THAT OUR RESIDENTS HAVE SAID THAT THEY WANTED. UM, AND THEN ALSO STILL ALLOWING INDUSTRIAL DEVELOPMENT TO GO FORWARD. AND SO THAT'S HOW WE JUST CAME UP WITH THE GIVE US THREE QUOTES WITH THE YOUR IRRIGATION. AND THEY TYPICALLY P AND D JUST PICKS THE MIDDLE AND THEN THAT GOES INTO SEPARATE FUNDS SO THAT THEN, UM, STAFF WOULD HAVE TO COME TO YOU AND ASK TO SUB TO ACTUALLY USE THOSE FUNDS TO GO PUT TREES ALONG THE TRAIL OR A PARK OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT. STUFF WITH THAT TREE COVERAGE BACK. SO WE'RE JUST KIND OF STUCK IN THIS MIDDLE AREA OF LIKE OBVIOUSLY STICKING WITH THE CURRENT UDC AND MOVING FORWARD WITH A NEW ONE. BUT THIS IS JUST I GUESS WHERE WE'RE AT RIGHT NOW. IT'S JUST IN THIS KIND OF STICKY AREA. AND FOR THIS ONE, I DON'T BELIEVE THAT THEY HAVE YET FULLY FLATTED. SO WE STILL HAVE, BECAUSE WE'RE LOOKING AT THE UDC COMING FORWARD, GOING TO PUBLIC MEETINGS, UM, AND KIND OF TOWN HALLS, UM, LATER IN SEPTEMBER. SO NEXT MONTH, UM, JUST TO HAVE EVERYBODY GET THAT LOOK AT LIKE, OH, OKAY, THIS IS REALLY HAPPENING. I KNOW I'VE SENT OFF SOME MORE CHAPTERS TO OUR P AND Z COMMISSIONERS FOR THEIR EYES. UM, THIS IS SOMETHING THAT IF THEY'RE NOT YET SPOTTED, WE HAVE A LITTLE BIT OF TIME TO ACTUALLY MAKE THIS WORK. UM, CERTAINLY WHEN WE'VE MET WITH OTHER LANDSCAPE ARCHITECTS, WE HAVE A LANDSCAPE ARCHITECT'S ON P AND Z, HE UNFORTUNATELY IS NO LONGER UM, ABLE TO VOLUNTEER ON P AND Z, BUT HE STILL IS VOLUNTEERING TO HELP REVIEW SOME OF THOSE PLANS FOR US. MM-HMM . AND THEN WHEN WE HAVE OTHER DEVELOPERS COMING IN WITH THEIR LANDSCAPE ARCHITECTS LIKE, HEY, WOULD YOU WANNA SEE THAT CHAPTER? DO YOU WANT US LIKE TELL US IF WE'RE GETTING IT WRONG? TELL US IF WE'RE GETTING IT RIGHT. WHAT HAVE YOU SEEN? AND SO THAT'S REALLY WHERE, UM, WE'RE RELYING ON PEOPLE THAT ARE SUBMITTING TO US TO ALSO HELP GIVE US THOSE COMMENTS. UM, SO A LOT OF THE, A LOT OF THE ISSUE STEMS FROM ONE, IF THE INTENT BEFORE WAS TO DISINCENTIVIZE THAT THAT'S ONE ISSUE. ANOTHER ISSUE IS THAT THINGS THAT MAKE SENSE AS A RATIO AT A SMALL SCALE DON'T ALWAYS MAKE SENSE AS A RATIO AT A LARGE SCALE. SO IF IT'S A, AND I'M MAKING THIS UP, THIS ISN'T NECESSARILY THE CODE, BUT IF IT'S A A TREE PER THOUSAND FEET, YOU GET A 5,000 FOOT STRUCTURE WITH FIVE TREES, THAT MAKES A LOT OF SENSE. BUT IF YOU HAVE A 500,000 SQUARE FOOT STRUCTURE WITH 500 TREES, THAT DOESN'T MAKE NEARLY AS MUCH SENSE. MM-HMM . AND THE, THE WHOLE POINT OF REQUIRING TREES IS TO IS TO PUT IN CANOPY ONE. IT'S PRETTY RIGHT, BUT TWO, IT'S MORE PRACTICAL THAN THAT. UH, IF Y'ALL CAN'T TELL IT'S HOT IN TEXAS, RIGHT? SO TREES SHADED AREAS UNDER TREES, LOWER GROUND TEMPERATURE AND HAVING TREE CANOPY BECOMES A VERY BIG ASSET. SO, AND I DON'T KNOW WHAT YOUR NEW CHAPTER SAYS, BUT MANY TIMES YOU END UP SHIFTING AWAY FROM A PURE RATIO WHEN YOU'RE AT THE SMALL PHASE YOU STAY RATIO. BUT THEN AS YOU GET BIGGER YOU TEND TO GO TOWARD CANOPY COVER HOWEVER MANY TREES THAT NEEDS. SO IF YOU HAVE SAY, YOU KNOW, YOU NEED UH, 70% OF YOUR PARKING AREA OR WHAT HAVE YOU UNDER TREE CANOPY IN ORDER TO BE SHADED TO REDUCE THE HEAT, TO REDUCE ALL THE, THOSE EFFECTS, THEN YOU JUST NEED HAVE TO PLANT HOWEVER MANY TREES IT TAKES FOR THOSE MATURE TREES TO DELIVER THAT MUCH OF CANOPY. SO, UM, THAT'S, THAT'S NOT UNCOMMON TO SEE AND IT'S GENERALLY PRETTY COMMON FOR CITIES LIKE US TO GO THROUGH AN ISSUE WHERE OUR OLD CODES DON'T WORK WITH WHAT'S HAPPENING IN OUR COMMUNITY NOW IN THE SAME WAY THAT, YOU KNOW, WE NEED THEM TO. AND THEN I KNOW FOR, I KNOW THAT YOU BROUGHT UP THE SCHOOLS FOR, THERE'S THEIR SPECIFIC USE PERMITS. UM, I THINK, I DON'T WANNA MISQUOTE THE PNC COMMISSIONERS. I KNOW THE LAST TIME THAT HOW DO ELEMENTARY AID CAME THROUGH THE IDEA AND THE LANDSCAPE PLAN THAT WAS PRESENTED. UM, IT WAS LESS ABOUT HOW MANY HOLES YOU'RE PUTTING IN THE GROUND FOR ALL THE TREES AT A CERTAIN CALIPER. THEY SAID, HOW ABOUT WE GIVE YOU THE SAME CALIPER INCHES WITH LARGER TREES AND THEN WE'RE GETTING THE SAME EFFECT OF TREES. AND SO YOU COULD SEE THAT ON THERE AND I THINK THAT'S WHERE IT WAS A REALLY GOOD USE OF THAT SPECIFIC USE PROCESS THAT WE HAVE WITH THE ISD OF OKAY, IT'S NOT GONNA BE THAT WE'RE PUTTING 50 HOLES IN THE GROUND BECAUSE WE COUNTED AT 50. IT'S HOW MANY TREE INCHES WAS THAT? CAN WE GET TO THAT REASONABLY TO WHERE THEY ARE STILL FEELING THAT THEY'RE BEING RESPECTED ON THEIR SAFETY ASPECT WHILE WE'RE STILL GETTING THE TREE COVERAGE THAT WE WERE WANTING IN THE FIRST PLACE. AND POTENTIALLY EVEN TREES THAT ARE GONNA LAST [00:20:01] LONGER DEPENDING ON DROUGHT CYCLES AND FRUIT CYCLES. YEAH, I THINK THAT'S ALL I'M LOOKING FOR TO DISCUSSION HOW TO GET TO THINGS TO WHERE WHEN PEOPLE READ THE CODE, THEY CAN COME UP WITH A PLAN, SIT IN FRONT OF YOU GUYS AND GO AND YOU, YOU'D ABLE TO NEGOTIATE IT INSTEAD OF A PLAN TO WHERE A LOT OF PEOPLE GOTTA GO TO P AND Z FOR A VARIANCE 'CAUSE ALL WE'RE DOING IS CREATING WORK FOR YOU. WE'RE CREATING WORK FOR OUR P AND Z BOARD, THEN THEY COME TO COUNCIL AND THERE'S ALL THIS WORK AND THE ONE THING TIME KILLS DEALS. AND SO WHAT'S KILLING THESE GUYS IS THEY'RE WAITING TO GO THROUGH THE PROCESS TO FIND OUT CAN THIS EVEN BE DONE ECONOMICALLY? AND TO ME, IF WE'RE GONNA BE SUCCESSFUL IN WHAT WE'RE DOING, WE'VE GOTTA FIGURE A WAY OUT TO WHERE THEY GO. LIKE I GUESS WHAT IS OUR INTENT? IF THE INTENT IS WE WANT IT TO LOOK GOOD AND HELP LOWER THE UM, TEMPERATURE, THEN WE SHOULD HAVE TO IF THE, IF THE INTENT IS TO ADD AN EXTRA TAX ON INDUSTRIAL PEOPLE TO WHERE YOU HAVE TO DO THIS OR YOU PAY A PENALTY OR YOU'RE GONNA DO THIS AND PAY A PENALTY, THEN THAT'S FINE. WE JUST NEED TO VOTE AND MAKE SURE THAT'S WHAT WE'RE DOING. BUT TO ME, I THINK MOST PEOPLE WANNA SEE IT SOMEWHAT BROKEN UP PROTECTED THE, THE VISUALLY WITH UH, TREES AND THINGS. UM, I DON'T KNOW IF MOST PEOPLE PAY ATTENTION TO THE BENEFITS OF TREES. THEY JUST LIKE THE AESTHETICS PART OF IT. AND SO TO ME, WHATEVER THAT LOOKS LIKE TO HAVE IT AROUND THE BORDER, I DON'T KNOW THAT WE NEED TO HAVE A FOREST PLANNED ON THE INSIDE OF THESE THINGS. 'CAUSE AGAIN, ONE ICE STORM, SOMEONE FROM THE CITY'S GOTTA COME THROUGH AND MAKE SURE THAT ALL 916 TREES ARE STILL PLANTED, THEY'RE STILL ALIVE, OTHERWISE THEIR CO GOES AWAY. AND AGAIN, WHY ARE WE DOING ALL THIS JUST FOR WHATEVER. SO TO ME, UM, THAT'S WHAT I BROUGHT UP. 'CAUSE AGAIN, IT'S OLD CODE. IT'S NOT GEARED TOWARDS WHAT WE'RE, I'M NOT GONNA SAY WE'RE PUSHING, BUT IT'S NOT, IT IS NOT TOWARDS THE MARKET RIGHT NOW. AND MAYBE HUDA DOESN'T WANT THAT MARKET. WE DON'T WANNA BE IN CAPEL OR LEWISVILLE. WE WANNA BE, I DON'T KNOW, A BEDROOM COMMUNITY WITH A WHOLE BUNCH OF HOUSES OR IF WE DO HAVE INDUSTRIAL, DO WE WANNA HAVE CERTAIN CODES THAT PERTAIN TO THEM, CERTAIN CODES THAT PERTAIN TO APARTMENTS, CERTAIN ONES A SINGLE FAMILY INSTEAD OF A ONE SIZE FITS ALL. UM, YEAH, I, I DEFINITELY THINK WITH THE CTC WHAT WE'RE LOOKING AT IS MAKING, I KNOW IT'S BEEN SAID ON COUNCIL MAKING THE RIGHT DECISIONS FOR HU TO NOT JUST THE RIGHT DECISIONS FOR ANY GENERIC COMMUNITY. IT HAS TO BE RIGHT FOR US. SO I THINK THAT'S WHERE WE'RE GONNA SEE A LOT OF IT. UM, I WOULD LIKE TO HAVE A LITTLE BIT MORE ABILITY JUST ON A STAFF LEVEL TO SAY HEY, WE CAN ACTUALLY KINDA WITH THE LIGHTING, IF YOU GIVE US AN ALTERNATE PLAN WE CAN REVIEW THAT AND WE CAN BE DONE AS LONG AS YOU JUST GIVE US THE BASIS OF WHY YOU NEED THAT ALTERNATE PLAN. WHAT IS THE DIRECTION THAT THE REWRITE AT THE UDC CODE IS GOING FOR? IF THESE TYPES OF PROJECTS, UM, IT'S DEFINITELY LESS, THE RATIO IS GOING TO CHANGE A LITTLE BIT. AND IT ALSO LOOKS AT, IF IT'S A COM MORE OF A UM, A SCENARIO LIKE THIS WHERE YOU ACTUALLY, IT'S MORE LIKE AN INDUSTRIAL COMPLEX OR UM, SOMETHING WHERE THEY'RE BUILDING MORE LIKE A TITAN WHERE YOU'RE LIKE, OKAY, THIS IS A FULL INDUSTRIAL PARK. IS TO BACK OFF THOSE REQUIREMENTS A LITTLE BIT. BECAUSE EVEN WHEN WE WERE DOING THE ORIGINAL 50 UP TO 50% AS A FEE AND LIE IT WAS, WE'RE ESSENTIALLY ASKING FOR 'EM TO BUILD A NATIONAL PARK LEVEL NUMBER OF TREES. AND THAT DOESN'T WORK FOR INDUSTRIAL. IT MAY HAVE WORKED FOR FLEX SPACE OR SOMETHING SMALLER THAN WE WERE DOING ON FRONT STREET, BUT THAT JUST DOESN'T WORK ON THOSE LARGER SCALE. UM, SO DOING SOMETHING THAT WOULD STILL BE PALPABLE TO BOTH SIDES, UM, AND AND KIND OF BACK OFF OF IT AND MAKE IT REASONABLE. AND THEN ALSO IF IT, IF IT'S SOMETHING THAT WE JUST, HEY, I'M STILL STUCK ON THIS. UM, RIGHT NOW WE DO HAVE THE ABILITY TO SAY, OKAY, WELL ONE, ONE LARGE TREAT COULD BE TWO SMALL TREES. WELL IF YOU'RE ALREADY AT 900 TREES, THAT PROBABLY ISN'T THE BEST BET. IT'D BE LIKE, YOU KNOW WHAT WE COULD DO ADD MORE TREES. THAT'S NOT WHAT WE NEED TO BE DOING IN OUR CODE. SO MAKING IT A LOT MORE REASONABLE AND DEFINITELY LOOKING AT THE NATIVE AND REDUCING SOME OF THE WATER ON THESE SITES JUST 'CAUSE IF WE'RE LANDSCAPING IT, THAT'S ALL PORTABLE WATER THAT'S GOING. SO DOES THE, THE CANOPY COVERAGE, IS THAT A POTENTIAL PATH TOWARD A, A NEW WAY OF CALCULATING TO WHERE YOU DON'T REALLY CARE HOW MANY TREES IT TAKES AND IT'S NOT GONNA BE 900, RIGHT? MM-HMM YOU DON'T CARE HOW MANY IT ENDS UP TAKING SO LONG AS THEY PRODUCE SO MUCH OF CANOPY COVER AND THEY CAN PLANT TREES THAT GET 60 FEET WIDE. YOU KNOW, MAYBE THEY JUST NEED ONE OF THOSE TO BE ABLE TO COVER A HUGE AREA AND THAT WAY IT DOESN'T, IT'S NOT, IT DOESN'T MATTER HOW MANY SQUARE FEET IT IS OF THE BUILDING, IT MATTERS HOW MUCH OF THE SIDE NEEDS TO HAVE COVER AND IT CAN JUST DETERMINE HOW MANY TREES THAT IS. YEAH, I DEFINITELY THINK THAT'S A SUPER INTRIGUING WAY TO LOOK AT THE TREE RATIOS AND I THINK THAT WOULD BE GOOD. I KNOW FOR WHAT WE WERE DOING IS MORE OF IT WAS STILL KEEPING WITH SOME OF THE RATIOS BUT THEN BACKING OFF OF SOME AND THEN GIVING THAT ENCY BUILT INTO THE CODE OF WE WOULD PREFER THIS AND IF YOU CAN'T, HERE'S AN ALTERNATIVE METHOD THAT WE CAN COME UP TO. AND THEN ALWAYS HAVING THAT APPEAL [00:25:01] PROCESS SEPARATE THAT IF THEY DON'T LIKE A DECISION THAT SOMEONE'S MADE, THEN YOU HAVE AN APPEAL TO A Z AND I DO LIKE THE CANOPY SO I CAN UM, CERTAINLY BRING THAT BACK UP WITH UM, THOSE THAT ARE IN THE, THAT SOUNDS AWFUL IN THE WEEDS. NO THAT UNINTENDED AND WE CAN ACTUALLY, UM, WE CAN LOOK AT THAT AS WELL AND KIND OF PRESENT THOSE OPTIONS OF DOES THAT WORK? IS THAT EASY? BECAUSE THE MAIN THING IN THE CODE IS I'D RATHER COME FROM A PLACE OF YES THIS IS WHAT WE WANT RATHER THAN THESE ARE THE THINGS WE DON'T WANT. GO FIGURE OUT WHAT WE ACTUALLY WANT. I DON'T THINK THAT'S FAIR AND I DON'T THINK THAT'S HOW YOU SHOULD REALLY BE DOING DEVELOPING. 'CAUSE IF THERE'S SOMETHING THAT HOW DO TRULY WANTS, THAT'S THE DIRECTION THAT WE NEED TO HAVE IN THE CODE SO THAT WE'RE GETTING WHAT THE COMMUNITY NEEDS AND WANTS. I DID SAY ONE ADDITIONAL ADD TO THAT REQUIREMENT. SO WHATEVER WE HAVE, 'CAUSE WE GOT THE TREE USA DESIGNATION. SO AS WE GROW, IF WE REDUCE THE NUMBER AND WE THEN AREN'T GETTING A FEE AND LOOP AND OTHER PLACES AND STUFF THAT WE ALSO NEED TO BE COGNIZANT OF WHAT THE HOOK NEEDS TO BE SO THAT WE DON'T LOSE THAT DESIGNATION. SO 'CAUSE I DON'T KNOW IF THERE'S BASED ON, ON CANOPY AND THEN IF YOU REDUCE IT THAT MUCH AND THEN IN THREE YEARS WE LOSE THE TREE DESIGNATION, THAT'S GONNA ANGER A LOT OF CITIZENS THAT ARE VERY PROUD THAT THEY LIVE IN A TREE USA CITY AND THAT'S QUALITY OF LIFE. THAT'S, YOU KNOW, A MARKETING THING TO SAY, HEY, WE LIVE IN THIS ENVIRONMENTALLY CONSCIOUS AREA AND WE LIVE IN CENTRAL TEXAS THAT IS NOT TRADITIONAL NORMAL OTHER TEXAS BUT A LITTLE MORE LIBERAL. SO I THINK THAT IS DEFINITELY SOMETHING THAT'S EXCITED IN THIS AREA. SO JUST WANNA MAKE SURE WE DON'T FOCUS SO MUCH ON THAT, THAT WE LOSE OUR DESIGNATION. JUST PROCESS THIS. SO THIS RIGHT IS THEY SUBMIT THESE PLANS AND YOU'RE FOLLOWING WHAT'S CURRENTLY IN THE CODE AND SO YOUR HANDS ARE PRETTY MUCH TIED. YOU CAN'T OFFER THAT FLEXIBILITY BUT WITH THE LIGHTS YOU POSSIBLY COULD BECAUSE I GUESS THERE IS A BETTER LANGUAGE IN THERE THAT SAYS, HEY, JUST JUSTIFY IT, WHATEVER. BUT WITH THE TREES, THERE'S NOT A CLAUSE IN THERE THAT UM, OFFERS FLEXIBILITY. IS THAT CORRECT? IT'S THE FEE, IT'S THE FEET. IT'S THE FEET. OKAY. YEAH, THE FEET. GOT IT. I MEAN BECAUSE I'M A FAN OF THE NATIVE, YOU KNOW, PLANTS AND ALL THAT GOOD STUFF, RIGHT? YEAH, THERE'S, I MEAN I DON'T KNOW THE DETAILS OF WHAT THAT INVOLVES, BUT ONLY FLEXIBILITY WE HAVE RIGHT NOW IS IF YOU CAN'T FIT TWO LARGE TREES. AND AGAIN, THAT'S USUALLY FOR THE SMALLER SITES. IF YOU CAN'T FIT ONE LARGE TREE, YOU COULD DO TWO SMALLER TREES IN LIEU OF THAT ONE LARGE TREE. MM-HMM. UP TO 50% OF THE TOTAL NUMBER OF LARGE TREES YOU HAVE TO HAVE. MM-HMM . THEN WE ALSO HAVE, FOR INDUSTRIAL MANUFACTURING, UP TO 50% OF YOUR REQUIRED TREES COULD BE DONE IN FEE IN LIEU SO THAT WE KEEP THE TREE CANOPY IN TOWN AND THEN COUNCIL GETS DECIDE IF THERE'S WHERE AND WHEN THOSE FUNDS AND THE TREES ARE DONE. I KNOW FROM ONE OF THE TITAN PROJECTS, THE ONLY PROVISION THAT WE PUT IN ON THE IN L WAS THAT THEY HAD THE ABILITY TO EITHER PAY THE FEE OR GO PLANT THEM OFFSITE IN THE LANDSCAPING SECTION THAT'S DIRECTLY ADJACENT TO EMORY FARMS AND THEY STILL CHOSE TO PAY THE FEE. 'CAUSE IT WAS LIKE, WELL IF YOU CAN MOBILIZE OUT HERE, YOU CAN STILL GO PLANT THE TREES AND WE WOULD BE OKAY WITH THAT. AND THEY STILL, UM, CHOSE THE UM, FEE, WHICH IT'S FINE, THAT'S WHAT THEY'RE ALLOWED TO DO. THAT WAS THE ONLY TIME I WAS LIKE, WELL IF YOU WANTED TO PLANT THEM, THAT WOULD BE A GREAT PLACE TO GO PLANT THEM. UM, SO I, SO WE'RE TRYING TO POSSIBLY CREATE A THIRD CATEGORY OF, IF YOU DON'T WANNA DO FEE IN LIEU OF, IF YOU DON'T WANNA DO THE TREE, THEN LET'S GIVE STAFF I GUESS SOME KIND OF DIRECTION OR FLEXIBILITY THINGS. SO WE'RE TRYING TO ADD SOMETHING ELSE TO ACCOMMODATE. I'M LOOKING MORE NOT FOR THAT. I'M LOOKING FOR LESS TRIPS TO STAFF. LIKE, SO I WORK WITH THE GUY, HIS WHOLE JOB IS TO SIT IN FRONT OF STAFF AND GO, I READ YOUR CODE 10 TIMES. I, I I DON'T KNOW LIKE WHAT DO YOU WANT TO SEE DONE? AND THERE'S ALL THIS NEGOTIATING BECAUSE OF CODE, LIKE THE WAY ASHLEY DESCRIBED IT TO ME, IT'S STILL CREATING WORK FOR ASHLEY TO WHERE IF A PERSON COULD JUST READ IT, LIKE FOR INSTANCE, THIS GUY SAYS ISSUE CALCULATIONS FOR TREE REQUIREMENTS ARE BASED ON TOTAL LOT AREA REQUIRING THE NUMBER OF TREES BE PLANTED TO BE VASTLY IN EXCESS OF WHAT IS HEALTHY FOR TREES AND FEASIBLE TO PLANT ON A SITE. IMPACT IS ADDITIONAL IRRIGATION DEMAND, EXCESSIVE TREE CROWDING, IMPACTING TREE HEALTH AND UTILITIES REQUIRED FEE IN LIEU ACTION BY P AND Z COMMISSION ON NEARLY EVERY PROJECT AND EXCESSIVE COSTS ASSOCIATED WITH TREES AND IRRIGATION. THEIR PROPOSED SOLUTION REVISED LANDSCAPING CODE FOR INDUSTRIAL TO REQUIRE ONE TREE PER 50 FEET OF FRONTAGE ALONG PUBLIC STREETS. UH, THAT THIS MEANS MAINTAIN THE CURRENT TREE REQUIREMENTS FOR PARKING ITEMS. THAT'S JUST ONE TREE AND A FEW SHRUBS PER PARKING LINE AND FOR EVERY 10 SPACES. TO ME, IF YOU COME UP WITH SOMETHING LIKE THAT, IT DOESN'T HAVE TO BE WHAT THEY'RE SAYING, THEN IT'S, THEY GOT IT, THEY MAKE IT LOOK AT IT, THEY'VE DONE ALL THIS GOING BACK AND FORTH AND BECAUSE WE SPENT HOURS ON EVERY SINGLE PROJECT FIGURING OUT WHAT TO DO. AND IN REALITY THAT'S WHAT I'M GOING TO, WHAT IS, WHAT IS THE INTENT OF THE CODE AND THEN HOW DO WE SIMPLIFY IT TO WHERE PEOPLE AREN'T SPENDING TONS OF TIMES. UM, I DON'T KNOW IF ONE [00:30:01] PER 50 IS APPROPRIATE, MAYBE IT'S ONE PER 40, MAYBE IT'S ONE PER 60. I DON'T KNOW. THAT WOULD DRASTICALLY REDUCE THE TREE CANOPY. 'CAUSE WHAT THEY WOULD BE PROPOSING THEN IS IT'S ONE TREE FOR EVERY 50 LINEAR FEET OF STRAIGHT FRONTAGE WHERE ON SOME OF THESE LOTS, IF THEY'RE 50 TO 75 MAYBE A HUNDRED FEET, YOU'RE NOT GETTING ANY TREES ON THAT SIDE AT ALL TREES. THAT'S NOT, THAT'S A, THAT'S THE ANTITHESIS 916TH. SO I DON'T KNOW IF WE'D WANT TO GO THAT THAT, I MEAN I DON'T KNOW WHAT CERTAINLY YEAH. POINT TAKEN . AND OBVIOUSLY WHEN YOU ASK A DEVELOPER, THEY'RE NOT ALWAYS GONNA SAY, WELL HERE'S WHAT I WOULD DO. AND LIKE, THAT'S GREAT. USUALLY IT'S GONNA BE ONE EXTREME AND OUR JOB TO KIND OF BLEND THEM. WHAT DO YOU GUYS SEE? LIKE, UH, YOU HAVE EXPERIENCE IN DFW, YOU HAVE EXPERIENCE ALL THROUGH HERE. WHAT DO YOU GUYS, ONE, DO YOU SEE ANY ISSUES AND DO YOU SEE SOLUTIONS THAT MEET US WANTING TO BE A TREE CITY? BUT NO, I, UH, TO YOUR POINT, I I MEAN THE, THE QUICKER THAT IF, IF WE CAN REALLY LOOK AT IT AND BE ABLE TO JUST GIVE YOU WHAT THE CODE SAYS AND UNDERSTAND IT, THEN, THEN THERE'S NOT THE GOING BACK AND FORTH. I THINK WHAT WE'VE SEEN BEFORE IN MY LANDSCAPE ARCHITECT'S A BETTER ONE. 'CAUSE SHE DEALS IN MUNICIPALITIES AND SHE, SHE'S ACTUALLY VERY GOOD AND SMART AT THIS. IS THAT MAYBE FOUR BUILDINGS OVER X SQUARE FOOTAGE, 50,000 FEET OR SOMETHING, THEN IT'S ONE, YOU KNOW, THE RATIO OF ONE PER EVERY THOUSAND SQUARE FEET OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT. BUT LIKE ON OUR SIDE OVER HERE, I THINK WE HAVE 660 TREES ON OUR FIRST PHASE AND WE'VE GOT ANOTHER GUY AND, AND LIKE, I FORGET HOW MANY SHRUBS, UH, I GOT. SO IT, THAT'S WHERE IT REALLY GETS HOW BIG IS YOUR FIRST PHASE? UH, 650,000 FEET. HOW MANY? I THINK, HOW MANY ACRES IS THAT? PROBABLY, UH, 30 ROUGHLY. I THINK. SO WE HAVE, OH HERE WE'VE GOT UH, UH, EXCUSE ME. YEAH, 655 TREES, UH, 2000 SHRUBS, 30 ACRES, 30 I THINK IT'S 30, 35 ACRES SOMETHING. AND CHAINS LAND WAS WHAT? A HUNDRED, SORRY, HOW BIG WAS THAT SPOT? A HUNDRED, 116 TOTAL. AND THERE'S A FLIPPING THERE. SO MY DEVELOPABLE ACREAGE IS PROBABLY THREE, PROBABLY 90 NO ACRES, SOMETHING LIKE THAT. SO, AND, AND, AND THE CHALLENGE TRULY IS, IS WITH THE SPACING ALSO IN THOSE TREES, RIGHT? BECAUSE THEN IF, IF YOU'RE, THEY'RE TOO CLOSE. IF YOU HAVE ALL THOSE, BY THE TIME THEY START GETTING MATURE, THEN YOU'RE GOING IN AND YOU'RE HAVING TO TAKE SOME OUT, YOU'RE THINNING. UM, AND SO IT JUST, IT IT BECOMES REALLY CHALLENGING. AND AGAIN, IT JUST, AS JAMES SAID, IT JUST GETS SKEWED TO SCALE. SO, AND, AND I, I MEAN I CAN HAVE MY ARCHITECT, SHE CAN PROVIDE SOME THINGS FOR YOU'ALL TO JUST, AND AND SHE'S VERY PRACTICAL. YOU KNOW, JUST WHAT MAKES SENSE. I, I'M HAPPY TO DO THAT. I'D LOVE TO PASS THROUGH THE CODE. JUST SAY, YOU KNOW, FIRST GLANCE, DOES THIS MAKE SENSE? IS IT SOMETHING THAT YOU CAN EASILY JUST LOOK AT? 'CAUSE THE MAIN THING IS I DON'T LIKE TO BURY THE LEAD IN THE CODE AND I DON'T THINK THAT'S FAIR. 'CAUSE TIME IS VERY BURY WHAT? BURY THE LEAD IN THE CODE AND JUST, WELL, YOU'RE GONNA HAVE TO GUESS. I DON'T KNOW WHAT WE WANT. MAYBE YOU CAN INFER FROM WHAT WE'VE GOT IN THERE. I THINK IT'S A LITTLE BIT BETTER JUST TO SAY, THIS IS WHAT WE WANT, THIS IS HOW YOU'RE GONNA DO IT, THIS IS HOW YOU'RE GONNA REACH SUCCESS HERE. AND THEN TRULY IF THERE'S A, AND I DON'T MIND, THERE'S TRULY A HARDSHIP. SOMEONE COME COMING TO PNZ OR COUNCIL ONE AND IT'S EXTREMELY DIFFICULT US GOING LIKE, COME ON. LIKE WE HAD 15 OF 'EM DO IT. BUT NOW WHEN THEY COME IT'S LIKE EVERYBODY'S COMING FOR TREE VARIANCES. AND SO, AND SOMETIMES WHEN WE HAVE THE, UH, A LEGITIMATE VARIANCE, I KNOW THAT MIGHTY FINE WAS ONE BECAUSE THEY GOT PERMISSION IN THE VERY BEGINNING OF THEIR PROJECT TO BE ABLE TO PLANT IN THAT LARGE EASEMENT THROUGH THEIR LOT WHERE IT'S DIAGONAL GAS EASEMENT. AND AT THE END THEY WERE TRYING TO CLOSE OUT AND THEIR EASEMENT, THE OWNER OF THE EASEMENT SAID, YOU CAN'T PLANT IN THAT. AND THEY WERE LIKE, WHAT ARE WE GONNA DO? ALL OF THEIR PLANS WERE ALREADY APPROVED, BUT ON A SMALLER COMMERCIAL LOT, THE LANDSCAPING ACTUALLY WORKS. AND UM, WE SAID, WELL IT IS, IT'S NOT SELF-IMPOSED. WE DO HAVE THIS OTHER THING. I THINK THERE'S A, UM, THERE'S A CHURCH ON LIMMER BECAUSE THAT VERY LARGE OVERHEAD LINE, THEY WERE SUCCESSFUL. UM, AND GET STAFF SUPPORT FOR THAT. YEAH, WE SAID NO TREES, RIGHT? DIDN'T WE SAY YOU, YOU WE ANNEXED HIM IN AND, AND PUT OR SOMETHING. AND WE SAID BECAUSE OF THE POWER EASEMENT, NOT NO TREES. I KNOW ON EDGE SCHMIDT THERE WAS A POWER EASEMENT AND WE SAID WE'RE NOT GOING TO DO MINIMUM PARKING STANDARDS BECAUSE OF AN ENCORE ISSUE THAT IF THERE WERE PARKING STANDARDS, THEY CAN'T PARK UNDER IT. MM-HMM. IT WAS SOMETHING DIFFERENT. THERE WAS SOMETHING OVER THERE WAS THE PARKING. IT WAS PARKING AND YOU CAN'T DO ANYTHING. WE ALREADY KNEW THAT YOU CAN'T DO ANYTHING OVER THE PARKING, THE UM, THE EASEMENTS. ANYWAY, SO THERE WAS A DIFFERENCE OF LIKE, HEY, WE CAN'T LANDSCAPE IN THIS AREA. WE'RE GONNA PUSH IT OVER HERE AND PUSH IT OVER HERE. UM, BUT THEIRS WAS SPECIFIC TO REQUIRED PARKING WAS A NO GO FOR ENCORE. BUT IF IT WASN'T REQUIRED, THEY COULD PARK THERE. SO WE'RE LIKE, OKAY, WE'LL [00:35:01] JUST MAKE IT NOT REQUIRED. AND YOU'RE STILL PARKING THERE BECAUSE THE BUSINESS KNOWS THEIR OWN HE NEEDS, THEY'RE NOT GONNA BUILD ANYTHING WITHOUT HER. HAD AN ISSUE WITH IMPACT FEES. BUT I'M NOT GONNA, BUT THAT'S A, THAT'S, THEY THINK THAT'S AN ISSUE NOW. THEY HADN'T SEEN NOTHING YET. SO I WOULD SAY, AND JESSICA, I KNOW THESE ARE BEING RECORDED, THERE IS SOMETHING IN OUR ORDINANCE FOR LUS THAT IF YOU, UM, HAVE THE MATH BEHIND WHY YOU FEEL THAT IT SHOULD BE REDUCED, THAT IS SOMETHING THAT GOES TO THE CITY ENGINEER. UM, WE HAVE HAD SEVERAL USERS USE THAT. UM, I KNOW EVO IS ONE THAT SAID, HEY, THAT'S NOT ACTUALLY, 'CAUSE OURS IS BASED ON CALCULATOR THAT WAS ADOPTED WITH THAT ORDINANCE THAT YOU HAVE THE ABILITY TO SAY, THAT'S NOT REALLY WHAT WE THINK OUR USAGE IS GONNA BE AND HERE'S SOME EMPIRICAL DATA THAT YOU CAN USE TO HELP. MM-HMM. , UM, THE MATH HAS CHECKED SAY YES OR NO, WE DON'T AGREE WITH YOUR MATH. YES, WE AGREE WITH YOUR MATH. AND THOSE LUS CAN CUT DOWN FROM THAT. HAVE OPTIONS THERE. WITHIN THAT WORTH THERE OTHER ITEMS YOU GUYS HAVE RUN INTO LIKE GARY WITH ALL THE STUFF YOU'VE DONE OR THAT OBVIOUSLY WE, WE DON'T MAKE, WE DON'T WANNA MAKE IT SO EASY THAT YOU GUYS ARE LIKE, THIS IS A BREEZE, BUT WE WANT YOU TO HAVE TO WORK IN A LITTLE BIT. NO, THE REALITY IS TIME'S ALWAYS DEVELOPERS, DEVELOPERS ARE ALWAYS GONNA WHINE, YOU KNOW, THAT WE'RE, IT'S COST TOO MUCH MONEY AND I MEAN, IT, IT NEEDS TO BE A GOOD PROJECT THAT EVERYBODY'S GONNA BE PROUD OF. AND, BUT I THINK THERE IS ARE THINGS AND THE LIGHTING, LIKE ON THE WALL PACK AND STUFF, THERE'S LIFE SAFETY ISSUES. MM-HMM. THERE'S ALSO, FOR ME, LANDSCAPING CLOSE TO THE BUILDINGS HAS THE POTENTIAL TO CAUSE THE SLABS TO HEAT, WHICH IS REAL PROBLEMATIC. AND SO THAT'S THE KIND OF STUFF OF NOT HAVING ANY PLANT MATERIAL AROUND THE BUILDINGS AND THINGS LIKE THAT. THAT'S THE STUFF THAT'S, THAT'S REALLY IMPORTANT. EVEN IN THE ISLANDS, YOU KNOW, WHEN YOU HAVE, NOW YOU'VE GOT ROOTS GETTING UNDERNEATH THE, THE PAVING AND, AND WITH OUR CLAY SOILS, YOU GOT WATER GOING DOWN IN THERE. THAT'S WHAT CAUSED THE HEAVING AND, YOU KNOW, CAUSES PROBLEMS. IT'S FUNNY TO SAY, 'CAUSE MY DAD LIVES IN TEMPLE AND HE GOES, MAN, IT MUST BE THE DIRT. HE GOES, IT SEEMS LIKE THIS TORNADO WENT THROUGH AND HE SAID, ALL THESE TREES TOPPLED OVER, THEY DIDN'T PULL ANY DIRT. IT'S LIKE ALL THE ROOTS WERE RIGHT ON TOP AND SO THEY JUST BLEW OVER. AND UH, IT, IT IS FUNNY YOU SAY THAT BECAUSE IF, IF EVERYTHING'S GONNA BE GOING UP TO, TO THE TOP, THEN YOU'RE JUST CREATING MAINTENANCE ISSUES. WHICH I GUESS IT'S EASY TO SAY THAT'S YOUR PROBLEM, NOT OURS. BUT IS THERE A WAY TO BETTER DO IT TO WHERE AGAIN, WE GET OUR ACHIEVED RESULTS AND UH, AND IN DOING THAT, IT STILL HAS A VERY NICE PROJECT AND IT LOOKS GREAT. WE, WE ALL WANT THE SAME THING, RIGHT? I WANT A NICE BUILDING THAT WE ATTRACT GOOD TENANTS THAT PAY, PAY ME RENT SO I CAN PAY PROPERTY TAXES AND YOU KNOW, BRINGS JOBS. I MEAN IT SHOULD WHERE EVERYBODY BENEFITS AND SO IT'S, IT IS TRYING TO FIND THAT MIDDLE GROUND. SO IT'S, BUT I, I THINK THAT'S WHERE YOU ALL ARE RIGHT NOW IS YOU'RE JUST NOW STARTING TO SEE THE LARGE DEVELOPMENT, THE LARGE BUILDINGS AND THAT THIS IS ONE OF THE THINGS THAT IS REALLY COMES INTO PLAY. SO I APPRECIATE Y'ALL TALKING ABOUT, YOU KNOW, TRYING TO LOOK AT IT AND COME UP WITH SOMETHING THAT WORKS. SO THAT AND, AND THE OTHER DEAL IS NOT HAVING TO GO THROUGH A VARIOUS PROCESS. 'CAUSE FOR ME AGAIN, IT'S THE TIME, TIME, YOU KNOW, I'VE GOT, I'M PAYING INTEREST AND ALL THAT KIND OF STUFF. AND SO YOU JUST, IT, IT IS HARD TO HAVE THE TIME TO BE ABLE TO DO THAT. SO THEY GOT WITH THE VARIANCE, LET'S SAY RIGHT NOW THEY MET WITH YOU AND THEY'RE LIKE, WE'RE GONNA NEED A VARIANCE. MM-HMM HOW SOON IF THEY HAD THEIR APPLICATION READY TO GO, I THINK I JUST SAW AN EMAIL FROM SOMETHING YOU SENT. IF THEY SENT IT IN BY A CERTAIN DATE, IT IT'D BE ON NEXT MONTH'S AGENDA. YEAH. SO AND THAT'S USUALLY FOR EVERYTHING. SO THAT WAS ON A ZONING SPECIFIC ITEM. BUT EVEN FOR VARIANCES, BECAUSE IT'S A PUBLIC HEARING, WE NEED ABOUT, WE NEED THAT LEAD TIME AND THEN WE ALSO HAVE TO HAVE STAFF TIME. SO EVEN IN THE, OUR VARIANCE PROCESS RIGHT NOW OR FOR ANYTHING THAT SUBMITS ON THE BEGINNING OF ONE MONTH AND WE TRY TO GET ON THE NEXT, THAT REALLY GIVES STAFF A WEEK TO LOOK AT IT AND GET THE PUBLIC NOTICES READY, THE SIGNS READY, EVERYTHING ELSE. AND JUST BECAUSE WE'RE HAVING A NOTICE BEFORE WE'RE REALLY SURE IT'S GOING ON VARIANCES A LITTLE BIT SIM MORE SIMPLE ONLY BECAUSE OF STATE LAW THAT THERE'S ONLY SO MUCH WIGGLE ROOM THAT WE HAVE. AND THAT'S THE ONLY PART THAT I DON'T LIKE ABOUT VARIANCES IS THAT EVEN IF WHEN IT SEEMS REASONABLE, WE JUST KIND OF GO, WELL WE'RE NOT STILL REALLY SUPPOSED TO SAY YES TO THIS. UM, BUT AGAIN, SOMETIMES THEY'RE VERY VALID. UH, AND WE'VE HAD SOME COME FORWARD BECAUSE OF EASEMENTS AND THAT WE'VE BEEN ABLE TO, MAYBE WE NEED TO FIGURE OUT LIKE THE THRESHOLD RIGHT FROM LIKE THE SQUARE FOOTAGE LIKE WE WE'RE TALKING ABOUT RIGHT NOW IS LIKE WITH, WITH WHENEVER IT'S SMALL INDUSTRIAL, IT'S THIS, THIS MANY TREES. BUT THEN ONCE YOU HIT THIS AND YOU'RE GOING BIG, THEN IT CAN KNOCK IT DOWN SAY, YOU KNOW, A THIRD AND IT'S, AND I DON'T KNOW WHO MAKES THAT CALL, YOU KNOW, ULTIMATELY IT'LL BE COUNCIL BECAUSE THAT'S WHERE THE UDC HAS TO WELL YEAH, EXACTLY. RIGHT NOW IT'S REALLY LOOKING AT WHAT WE HAVE SEEN AS FAR AS WHO'S HAVING TO TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THE 50% RULE FOR INDUSTRIAL OR WHERE WE'VE SEEN IT IN OTHER, UM, LOCATIONS AS FAR AS COMMERCIAL OR ESPECIALLY MULTIFAMILY. [00:40:01] UM, JUST LANDSCAPING IN GENERAL. AND THEN, OKAY, IF WE'RE SEEING THIS, WHAT WOULD'VE BEEN REASONABLE? WHAT'S SEEN AS REASONABLE WHEN WE'RE COMING THROUGH WITH THE PD? IS IT SOMETHING THAT WE SHOULD THEN WORK IN WHAT WE'VE DONE WITH THE SCHOOL DISTRICT TO SAY MAYBE IT'S NOT A TWO INCH, MAYBE IT'S A THREE INCH CAL STILL GETTING THE SAME AMOUNT, AT LEAST AT LEAST TREE INCHES, EVEN IF IT'S NOT THE SAME NUMBER OF TREES. YEAH. AND THAT'S WHY I DON'T, THAT'S WHY I DON'T PARTICULARLY LOCK THE CALCULATION AS MUCH AS I LIKE THE CANOPY CALCULATIONS BECAUSE YOU KNOW, YOU GET, YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO HAVE 10 TREES BECAUSE YOU'RE TRYING TO GET CANOPY AND THEN YOU'RE LIKE, OH WELL JUST KIDDING. WELL I'LL HAVE TWO FIVE INCH TREES AND YOU GET HALF THE CAN NOT THE OTHER PART YOU'RE JUST LIKE, I DON'T WANT NEED 50 INCHES OF TREES. I DON'T WANT YOU TO MOVE IN A HERITAGE OAK. THAT'S NOT REALLY THE POINT. YEAH. UM, ALTHOUGH IT WOULD BE REALLY COOL TO SEE, BUT I THINK THAT THERE IS OR THERE'S SOMETHING REASONABLE THAT WE CAN COME WITH. I CAN CERTAINLY TAKE THESE NOTES BACK TO CONSULTANT AND MAKE SURE WITH ANYTHING THAT WE'VE ALREADY, UM, REVIEWED THAT HEY, WE'RE REVIEWING THIS FOR EASE OF NOT, I MEAN WE ARE REVIEWING THE CODE BASED ON UM, EASE OF STAFF USE, BUT ALSO EASE OF APPLICANT USE AND JUST GENERAL UNDERSTANDING BECAUSE THIS IS ALSO SOMETHING IF WE HAVE A SMALL BUSINESS OWNER, THEY NEED TO BE ABLE TO UNDERSTAND IT TOO. NOT JUST HAVING TO GO HIRE, THEY HAVE TO HIRE PROFESSIONALS, BUT I WANT THEM TO BE ABLE TO ALSO JUST READ THE CODE AND UNDERSTAND WHAT IS LOOKING FOR. I THINK COUNCIL OUGHT BE ABLE TO READ IT AND UNDERSTAND IT BECAUSE WE CAN'T ALWAYS HIRE A CONSULTANT. WELL WE NEED TO MOVE ON IT. SO THAT, I MEAN BY THE TIME WHEN THE UDC FINALLY THE NEW ONES FINALLY GETS ADOPTED, WHAT'S THE TIMEFRAME ON THAT? WE ARE HOPING BY OCTOBER. OH, OKAY. FIRST OF THIS YEAR. OKAY. SO RIGHT NOW WE'RE JUST IN IT HERE. A OF MONTHS. YEAH, WE'RE LOOKING AT MAYBE ANOTHER 10 WEEKS BEFORE WE'RE PRESENTING WITH YOU. OH WOW. OKAY. WE ARE TOWARDS THE END OF THIS. OKAY. YEAH, SO I WAS THINKING OF MORE LIKE SIX MONTHS TOO MAYBE. OKAY, GOT IT. ONE OTHER QUESTION ON LIGHTING. SO IF, IF YOU'RE BUILDING A LIKE THIS RIGHT NOW, THEY CAN'T DO WALL PACKS ON INTERIOR. THEY COULD DO WALL PACKS ON THE, LIKE THE REAR OF THE BUILDING OR WHERE YOU HAVE THE BIG TRUCK DOCKS AND THINGS LIKE THAT. THAT'S ALWAYS ALLOWED FOR, UM, THE INDUSTRIAL DEVELOPMENTS. WHAT WE DON'T LIKE TO SEE, BECAUSE A LOT OF LIGHTING IS SO SIMILAR WHERE YOU COULD DO A WALL PACK, YOU COULD DO A VERY SIMILAR SCONCE, WHICH THAT WAS WHAT IN ONE CASE, W'S WALL PACK S FOR SCO ON YOUR, UM, PHOTOMETRIC PLANS. UM, IT'S ESSENTIALLY JUST A QUICK CHANGEOVER OF WHAT TYPE OF, UM, LIGHT YOU'RE USING. SO IT'S NOT THAT YOU CAN'T HAVE LIGHTING, IT'S THAT IT'S A SPECIFIC WALL PACK THAT LOOKS LESS PRETTY. AND WE WERE REALLY GOING FOR THE AESTHETIC LOOK. UM, IF YOU LOOK IN THE CODE NOW WITH SOME OF THE AESTHETICS, IT, EVEN FOR COMMERCIAL IT SAYS WE PREFER GOOSENECK LIGHTING ON THE FRONT OF THE BUILDINGS RATHER THAN JUST AN INDUSTRIAL GOOSENECK. UM, LIKE MORE OF LIKE THE INDU, UM, OLY LITTLE BIT MORE. SO YEAH, IT'S REALLY WHAT OVER IS THIS AND THEN THE GOOSENECK ONE GOES UP AND THEN UP AND THEN OVER AND DOWN. YEAH. SO I DON'T KNOW WHY WE REQUIRE STUFF BY THEFT INDUSTRIAL, BUT TO ME, IF YOU'RE BUILDING INDUSTRIAL, THAT'S NOT, IT'S A BAD BECAUSE THAT'S JUST FOR COMMERCIAL, BUT WE STILL SAY, HEY NO WALL PACKS. UM, BUT SO MANY THINGS ARE BECOMING LED THAT A LOT OF THINGS LOOK LIKE A WALL PACK. EVEN IF IT'S NOT A WALL PACK AND YOU'RE STILL ALLOWED TO USE THAT. IT'S NOT THAT WE'RE LOOKING AT IT GOING LOOKS LIKE A WALL PACK. EVEN IF IT SAYS A SCON, WE'RE JUST SAYING, HEY, DON'T USE THE SPECIFIC WALL PACK. THEY CAN USE CUTOFF LIGHTING AND GET A LITTLE BIT MORE LIGHTING AND CUTOFF IS JUST THE C IT, IF IT ONLY TURNS ON WHEN THERE'S MOVEMENT, THAT CAN, BUT IT STILL, IF IT'S A WALL PACK, EVEN IF IT'S MOTION SENSORED, YOU'RE ONLY SUPPOSED TO HAVE THAT IN THE REAR OF THE BUILDING AND IT'S USUALLY 'CAUSE WALL PACKS GO OUT FAR. IT WAS JUST AN AESTHETIC. RIGHT. SO YEAH, I MEAN WHAT'S OUR, WHAT'S OUR THOUGHT BEHIND THAT IN TERMS OF LIKE WHY? I THINK IT WAS STRICTLY FOR AESTHETICS. YEAH. JUST BECAUSE YOU WANT A BETTER LOOKING BUILDING AND WALL PACKS WERE NOT DESIRED. UM, ARE ARE, BUT ARE WALL PACKS SHIELDED THE SAME WAY? BECAUSE DON'T, DON'T YOU HAVE THEN HAVE THE LIGHTS SPILL OVER THE LOT LINES. A LOT OF IT. YEAH. SO PACK LIKE WHENEVER YOU'RE DRIVING DOWN THE HIGHWAY AND YOU SEE ONE OF THE DISTRIBUTION CENTERS AND YOU CAN LIKE VISIBLY SEE ALL OF THEIR LIGHTS ALONG THE WALL OF THE BUILDING SHINING OUT MANY TIMES THAT'S, THAT IS A WALL PACK. NOW YOU CAN GET, YOU CAN GET SHIELDED ONES THAT SHOOT DOWN MORE AND NOT OUT AS MUCH, BUT THAT IS PROBABLY WHAT YOU'RE CALLING A SCONE. RIGHT? THAT'S WHAT OR SCONCE A SCONE DUDE ALL DAY. SEE? YEAH. SO IT'S REALLY ABOUT, IT'S, IT'S, THE LIGHT SHINES OUT IF LIGHT SHINES DOWN, IF IT'S BETWEEN A TRUCK COURT, IT SHINES OUT AND IT HITS ANOTHER BUILDING THAT'S ANOTHER INDUSTRIAL BUILDING THAT'S NOT AN ISSUE. IF IT'S SHINING OUT AND IT'S BRIGHTENING UP SOMEONE'S BACKYARD, THAT'S GONNA BE AN ISSUE. THEY CATCH ON, ON PHOTOMETRICS, THEY USUALLY DO. OR SOMETIMES IT'S JUST BECAUSE YOU'LL SEE THE LIGHT, BUT BY THE TIME IT GETS TO THE PROPERTY LINE IT'S LOW ENOUGH, BUT IT'S NOT LIKE YOU CAN'T SEE THE LIGHT. UH, YOU CAN STILL SEE IT EVEN IF IT'S 200 FEET AWAY. AND SO IT'S STILL A VISUAL DISTURBANCE. I DON'T HAVE OF ANY OTHER ISSUES, UH, [00:45:01] IN THAT DIDN'T HAVE COME UP. IS THERE ANY NAMES THAT I'VE TALKED TO YOU ABOUT THAT I, I DIDN'T BRING UP? NOW IS THOSE THREE? WELL, I'LL DEFINITELY TAKE THOSE NOTES BACK. UM, WE'LL DISCUSS 'EM ON STAFF AND WE WILL, WE ARE CHANGING IT FROM LUMENS TO WHATEVER THE COMMON MEASUREMENT IS, RIGHT? OR WE'RE GOING TWO. YES. I FORGET WHAT'S THE NAMES. WE DO LUXE RIGHT NOW, WHICH IS LESS THAN FOOT CANDLES AND EVERYBODY DOES FOOT CANDLES EXCEPT FOR US. AND IT IS JUST, THAT IS A COMMON, WE DON'T USE, WE DON'T USE FOOT CANDLES. PLUG USE LUXE. WE ARE GOING TO FOOT CANDLES. IT'S JUST THANK YOU. I EAT IT TOO. THERE DEFINITELY THINGS IN THE CUTTING LIKE, SO ANYTHING ELSE BEFORE WE GO? ALL WE ADJOURN AT 6 46. * This transcript was created by voice-to-text technology. The transcript has not been edited for errors or omissions, it is for reference only and is not the official minutes of the meeting.